How Curiosity Drives Successful Branding and Content Creation with Emily Aborn

Larry Roberts [00:00:09]:

What is happening, everybody? I'm Larry Roberts.

Sara Lohse [00:00:11]:

And I'm Sara Lohse. And this is Branded, your comprehensive guide to creative branding.

Larry Roberts [00:00:16]:

And on this amazing episode of the podcast, very radio esque this morning, our guest is Emily Aborn. She's a copywriter, she's a speaker, and she even has her own podcast. Go figure. That's a rare thing. She works very, very closely with her clients and creates businesses that are built on relationship and community. And I think that's huge. You know, a lot of people right now are trying to figure out how come my podcast isn't helping me accomplish my goals. And I think a lot of times it's because we failed to create that community.

Larry Roberts [00:00:45]:

So I love to see that, that word right there. Today she's going to be talking about I'm hitting puberty. Today she's going to be sharing about how we can infuse our brand messaging with curiosity and why it matters. So I'm very curious, huh, as to how that works. So, Emily, welcome to the show.

Emily Aborn [00:01:02]:

Thank you. Thanks for having me. And I agree, it's always like a curiosity provoking topic in and of itself, which is why it's fun.

Sara Lohse [00:01:09]:

I have a whole chapter in my book all about curiosity and how I think of curiosity as the root of expertise, and the topics we're an expert in are the topics that we are just endlessly curious about. So I'm really curious about your take on curiosity and what that means to you and how you talk about it.

Emily Aborn [00:01:27]:

Well, it's interesting you say that, because there's different types of curiosity, which I want us to totally get into. I have a hunch of what Sara's is after listening to your show a bit. But I think of it as kind of like, like you said, it's like, pulls us towards something. So it's like this intrigue and something. It doesn't. It doesn't necessarily need to be topic related. It could be like a person or a thing or a next path. Right.

Emily Aborn [00:01:53]:

But it is this kind of, like, pull that guides us along through life to the next thing. So when we're using our copy and our words and our branding, we can kind of do this naturally in certain ways and, like, also avoid certain things that turn people's curiosity off. So it. It's not like a faucet. It's more like a, like a slow kind of thing, but there are ways that we can totally shut it down.

Larry Roberts [00:02:20]:

That's kind of cool, you know, and real quick, before we go on, I just love how we've probably done about, I don't know, 30 episodes since Sara's book came out. And every guest we have, regardless of the topic, she has a chapter in her book about that topic. It's the craziest thing. It's so wild. But that's amazing. I love it.

Emily Aborn [00:02:40]:

Well, I want to read that chapter.

Sara Lohse [00:02:43]:

Because you've never mentioned your book that's sitting behind you and you point out constantly, oh, you mean this one here?

Larry Roberts [00:02:48]:

Oh, look at that.

Sara Lohse [00:02:49]:

Oh, look at that.

Larry Roberts [00:02:51]:

It's weird.

Sara Lohse [00:02:52]:

Look at that.

Larry Roberts [00:02:53]:

I just had to jump in there. No, but I mean, I love I'm very curious about a variety of things, in all honesty. And of course, every episode, I have to slip in some chat GPT talk to. Yesterday, just yesterday, they released the advanced voice functionality on chad GPT and, man, I found it at, like, 230 in the morning, and I stayed up the rest of the night chatting with Chad GPT and I was just giddy with curiosity as to how I could potentially use this new functionality. And me and Megan, that's what I named her off the crazy robot. Megan. I know you said you don't know much about pop culture, but there is a movie about a little female robot. I guess she's, do robots have genders? They dressed her up as a chick anyways, and she went apeshit and started killing everybody.

Larry Roberts [00:03:38]:

So that's why I named her Megan. But it really sparked my curiosity there. So expand on that. How are there different types of curiosity?

Emily Aborn [00:03:48]:

Okay, so this is, like, not my original concept. I don't know who gets the credit for it, but you can google it or ask chat GPT or Megan or whatever you want, but the four are. And, like, it's fun to see where you fall, right? But it's also fun to think about, like, ooh, where does my listener or my ideal kind of client fall in? So there's the fascinated, and this is, like, almost 30% of the population where you have, like, a lot of broad interests and you have a lot of information about a lot of things because you're interested in a lot of things. So eclectic reading might be kind of like, you'll read across different genres and watch shows across different genres. They also can be, like, really interested in, like, politics and news and current events and pop culture and, like, things happening. So that's the fascinated. And then there's the empathizer. This is, like, a little bit smaller of a portion, 25%.

Emily Aborn [00:04:40]:

They're really interested in, like, people. What makes people tick? Like psychology, sociology, how people get together in groups, like anything, personality, people. That's their thing. And then there's the problem solver, and this is a lot of us. Like, you'll probably fall into, like, one or two categories. If you fall into all the categories, you'd be fascinate or fascinated. Right. Um, so the problem solver is, like, if you have something that you're trying to get to the bottom of, you will go into that topic very, very deeply and intensely until the problem is solved or until you find, like, an innovative solution.

Emily Aborn [00:05:14]:

But it's all about, like, a really focused kind of curiosity. And then there's the avoider. And, like, they're not listening to your podcast right now because they're not very curious or interested. They just don't have that natural sort of pull in them to, like, find out things. You could probably become curious somewhere along in your life if you're an avoider, but just not really there. And we all know people like this, I'm sure. So my guess was that Sara was a fascinated because she seems to know a lot about a lot of things, and every time you bring something up on your show, she, like, has a random factoid about it and a chapter in her book. And a chapter in her book.

Sara Lohse [00:05:54]:

Okay, well, then Larry is the problem solver, because one thing comes up, and he spends 14 hours on YouTube figuring out, like, anything. That's why I don't have to do research anymore. Anything that comes up, I'm just like, I'm gonna go ask Larry. That is.

Emily Aborn [00:06:11]:

That is 100% a problem solvers modus operandi. I'm an empathizer, which means I went and searched about both of you and wanted to learn about your personalities and your dynamic. And, like, that was fascinating to me. So there you go. Well, I met your dog, Kevin.

Sara Lohse [00:06:29]:

Oh, that's true.

Emily Aborn [00:06:29]:

Yeah.

Larry Roberts [00:06:30]:

But I will tell you, Sara, before you jumped into the green room, before we hit record, Emily did tell me that she has been stalking you.

Emily Aborn [00:06:37]:

I mean, like, Instagram's talking, not like. And LinkedIn. I mean, you'll see. LinkedIn makes obvious. LinkedIn's like, this person was looking at you feature. I know.

Sara Lohse [00:06:51]:

Can we get rid of that?

Larry Roberts [00:06:52]:

Yeah. I want to be able to stalk somebody and them not know it, because that's really not stalking anymore.

Sara Lohse [00:06:57]:

If somebody remember on Instagram, when Instagram, like, first blew up, there was a feature that you can go and see what photos other people were liking. Oh, I did not know that ruined so many relationships.

Larry Roberts [00:07:12]:

Oh. Because, like, one member of the relationship will be liking somebody else. Photos and other significant other would see what they liked and, oh, my God.

Emily Aborn [00:07:22]:

I mean, Facebook borders on that now. Still, like, you still do get updates about people that you're like, I have to turn all the. I don't know what I did.

Larry Roberts [00:07:31]:

I do, too. I get notifications. I'm like, I don't. I don't care what Joe blow over here commented on. I. That's irrelevant to me. Yeah, but you gotta be careful. And I, you know, I'm old, so I can't even fathom trying to date in a social media world.

Larry Roberts [00:07:46]:

I mean, I'm curious as to how people pull it off.

Sara Lohse [00:07:50]:

It's not fun.

Emily Aborn [00:07:52]:

That would not be my area of expertise. So I'm going to go ahead and skip that question if that was a question.

Sara Lohse [00:07:59]:

All right, let's go into. Sara teaches dating 2024. It's a horrible place. Don't join.

Larry Roberts [00:08:05]:

So, Emily, how do you channel your curiosity into, like, brand building? And how can curiosity help us develop our brands?

Emily Aborn [00:08:14]:

Okay, so I think, first of all, like, if you are a business owner or creator, it's helpful to be curious, right? Because you're going to bring that natural, like, whenever you bring something to the table that you're curious about, it comes through in whatever you're sharing. I find typically when we're using it in our messaging, the goal is to be like, we want to create curiosity. We want to create interest. We want to invite people in rather than, like, push things in their face. But we also don't want to make things like, too. You know, there's a line you can cross where it's like, you're just too confusing and too vague, and your curiosity is actually, like, that does not make sense. So we're going to talk about, like, how do we kind of toe that line? Because I always say, like, curiosity does not result in confusion. I still need to understand who you are, what you do, that kind of thing.

Emily Aborn [00:09:03]:

And I had a guest on my show. She's the host of the Grammar Girl podcast, probably, like, my biggest podcast crush ever, Mignon Fogarty. She's like a super grammar nerd. And she says that every year I loved this. She's like, every year I go through, like, my content, and I ask myself this question. Would I follow me? Would I be interested in me? Would I listen to me? Would I look at my instagram? And I think, like, it kind of starts there. And if you can't answer it for yourself, grab a friend like Sara or Larry and be like. Or have chat, GPT roast.

Emily Aborn [00:09:36]:

You chat GPT does roasts on your content. And ask yourself, like, am I actually interesting? Am I creating things that are interesting? There may be reasons that it's not like maybe you're actually just not really interested in it. Maybe it's you're trying to, like, button it up a little bit too much and, like, keep your personality locked away. But asking yourself that question, I think is a good starting point for any business owner.

Larry Roberts [00:10:01]:

That's kind of cool. That's a perspective I've never taken before. Would I want to friend me?

Emily Aborn [00:10:06]:

Yeah, of course I want to be my friend.

Larry Roberts [00:10:09]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aborn [00:10:10]:

Would I LinkedIn stalk me? I would actually LinkedIn stalk myself.

Larry Roberts [00:10:15]:

That's so funny because I facebook stalked you this morning. I was like, all right, let me see what she looks like. Let's see what's going on here, because you mentioned your husband and your dog, and I was like, all right, let's see. And Clyde, I love the fact that your dog's name is Clyde.

Emily Aborn [00:10:27]:

I know, it's so perfect.

Larry Roberts [00:10:29]:

That's so hilarious. Because, you know, growing up in the eighties, there was a movie called every which way but loose with Clint Eastwood, and he had a pet orangutan, and the pet orangutan's name was Clyde.

Sara Lohse [00:10:41]:

So, all right, if I have a book chapter for every topic, you have an obscure eighties movie reference.

Larry Roberts [00:10:47]:

Okay, I own that.

Sara Lohse [00:10:48]:

Every topic.

Larry Roberts [00:10:49]:

I own that. I do. I own that. I love eighties and nineties pop culture. So. Yes, but Clyde is such an amazing name because Clyde was. Was very, very strong. He's an orangutan.

Larry Roberts [00:10:59]:

And whenever Clint Eastwood needed him to do something, like, he would have Clyde tear up the bad guys cars. So he'd be like, clyde, strip the Caddy, and Clyde would go over to the Cadillac and start ripping the doors off and that trunk lit. So it was really fun. So as soon as I saw Clyde, I thought, oh, my God, I got to watch that movie again.

Emily Aborn [00:11:14]:

I'm going to have to train him to do that.

Larry Roberts [00:11:16]:

Yeah, just go sick him. So anyways, but again, going back, getting serious again, or at least somewhat focused on the, on the conversation, that is, again, a perspective that I've never taken. And I wonder now, if we were to go back and audit our social media channels, would we want to follow us or would we want to friend us? And I think this ties in so beautifully with the fact that we were at a conference last week. We had an amazing LinkedIn panel that was there. And I learned so much about LinkedIn and LinkedIn engagement, and you know, a lot of people sit and they struggle on whatever social media platform they choose to be on. But maybe if they did that audit, they'd realize what's missing, and maybe that would spark some curiosity and allow them to dig into issues a little bit deeper, questions or topics a little bit deeper and start creating more compelling content.

Sara Lohse [00:12:07]:

I actually do that from my own Instagram. Anytime someone new follows me on my personal Instagram, I will go through my entire feed and see if there's anything embarrassing that I should remove before they get to it. So is that your social anxiety?

Emily Aborn [00:12:21]:

Yes. You're just chopping things that don't align with every single person.

Sara Lohse [00:12:28]:

I'm a people pleaser.

Emily Aborn [00:12:30]:

So I think another, like, thing that comes right along those lines to your point of the LinkedIn, is, like, am I actually speaking? Am I being engaging? Am I engaging with other people and not just basically myself, like, talking about myself all the time, sharing my own message all the time? It's why at the beginning of our conversation, I like to ask you who really you speak to, because, and I don't love when people go on and they just talk about their own story or their own experiences. Like, we want to really, like, be relating to the person on the other side. And that is where I think, on LinkedIn, on all the social media, we can all go a little bit awry. We're like, oh, it's the me me show. But it's so much of it comes down to just, like, engaging, like I have. When somebody leaves me a comment on a post, I'm like, oh, my God, they're the best person ever. It feels so good to all of us. I just wrote back to, like, this big time copywriter yesterday, and I was, like, writing him a really personalized email.

Emily Aborn [00:13:30]:

And he said, thank you for such a personalized email. Sometimes it just feels like I'm shouting into a void. And he's like, made it. I was. It was. It was a good reminder that, like, we all need that, you know? So people, your people want that, too. They want you to, like, be engaging with their stuff. And so I think a lot of curiosity comes down to also being curious about other people.

Sara Lohse [00:13:50]:

I think that's. Yeah, I mean, we talk about podcasting all the time with, like, anyone who's trying to build a brand. And I think that's just another just reason why either having a podcast or guessing on podcasts is such, such a smart idea, because that puts other people in your content. So when you're posting content every day, you're highlighting somebody else instead of just.

Emily Aborn [00:14:15]:

Yourself on my show. I love even, like, using people's names when I know that they've told me something or, like, I know they're listening. I'm like, hello, TC. I can hear. You know, I can see you right now. Not really see you, but, yeah, it's fun. It's great, and it makes people feel like part of the conversation. I'm not an.

Sara Lohse [00:14:33]:

Hey, you.

Larry Roberts [00:14:34]:

We're hearing all kinds of stalker esque type commentary here. I'm watching you, TC.

Emily Aborn [00:14:43]:

Hopefully he's not listening to this one.

Larry Roberts [00:14:46]:

Cast, even though you're not on the podcast. Good Lord.

Emily Aborn [00:14:53]:

You have an eighties. Maybe an eighties movie reference is appropriate, actually.

Larry Roberts [00:14:57]:

Son of a bitch. I actually had an eighties tv show reference because TC was the helicopter pilot on Magnum PI.

Sara Lohse [00:15:05]:

Never seen it.

Larry Roberts [00:15:06]:

Yeah, with Tom Selleck. It was a big show in it.

Sara Lohse [00:15:08]:

Oh, he's from friends.

Larry Roberts [00:15:09]:

Well, he showed up on friends a little bit. Yeah, he dated Rachel.

Sara Lohse [00:15:14]:

Monica.

Larry Roberts [00:15:14]:

Damn it. I was so close. I had a 33% chance of being right there, and I still flubbed it up. Oh, well, it is what it is. I'm curious as to what Emily is feeling right now while sitting here on the podcast.

Emily Aborn [00:15:28]:

How am I feeling? Yes, I'm feeling great. Thank you for asking.

Larry Roberts [00:15:33]:

Well, yes, that's great.

Emily Aborn [00:15:34]:

Slightly warm because I'm in New Hampshire and I have a wood stove going, but that sounds cozy.

Larry Roberts [00:15:39]:

That sounds. I'm curious as to. I see your scrabble squares in the background. Are you a big scrabble fan?

Emily Aborn [00:15:46]:

I am.

Larry Roberts [00:15:46]:

See?

Emily Aborn [00:15:46]:

So, okay, this is actually a super good example. Yes. I'm a professional, so I'm a word nerd. And, like, I love Scrabble. And what's the other one? Crosswords. You know, all the. All the word stuff, wordle connections, all of that. So these scrabble letters on my.

Emily Aborn [00:16:07]:

On my wall here are a great example of, like, how we can, in little, tiny ways, create curiosity, which is just, like, putting our personality in places. And both of you have very personality filled backgrounds, and it's, like, such a good way to generate it just, like, sparks your brain to life, you know? You're like, ooh, I want to know more about this person. The fact that you're booked is titled Red Hat or under the red hat. It makes me wonder, like, is it about you? Like, what is under the red hat? It is about asking.

Larry Roberts [00:16:37]:

Yes. See? And that's the whole idea, is that's why I named it. What? I named it because I want people to ask, what is under the red hat, because it's all about branding and people think the red hat's the brand, but it's not. It's everything that's under the red hat. That is the brand. Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:16:51]:

I name mine, open this book. Because I wanted people to open the book.

Emily Aborn [00:16:54]:

Oh, my God, these are amazing. Okay, so I think this brings me to something else that, like, we can do that helps create curiosity, which is not to close loops. And actually, I think, Sara, you talked about this. I think it was in your podcast pitching episode. I don't remember. But you talked about, like, keeping, keeping things, like, open looped and open ended, which is, like, not leading the witness, I guess, if I. If I had a term for it. But, like, not telling people what they should think, but letting them, like, create their own sort of questions and their own sort of thinking from what we do.

Emily Aborn [00:17:27]:

And I love doing this with blogs. Like, instead of a blog that's just, like, do this, this, this. Which, by the way, people will do wrong anyway, and then they'll be like, it didn't work. But I, like, kind of giving them their own, sort of, like, you might apply it this way if you, you know, or try this, try this, try this. But, like, not giving them any one sort of 100% certainty, you know? And I think keeping that loop open brings people in more than, like, pushes them away.

Sara Lohse [00:17:56]:

That's really interesting. I'm curious. I feel like I'm just going to use that word so many times, not even on purpose. How do you incorporate, like, curiosity into things like headlines without it becoming clickbaity?

Emily Aborn [00:18:09]:

Oh, so good. Yeah. So I love hooks, but, like, tasteful hooks. Right. And I think that there's a couple, like, asking a question is a really nice hook. That is such a good one. Putting your personality into a hook is nice. Uh, including, like, a little element of a surprise.

Emily Aborn [00:18:26]:

And here's what I would say is one, like, keeping things short. Obviously, people have, like, kind of short attention spans, it seems, nowadays, but I think that we confuse, like, this is a great example of where we confuse curiosity with, like, something. It's not. It's not a hook if you're just, like, all caps or all emojis. Like, that's not curiosity inducing yelling, it's just yelling. Yeah. So I think, like, asking people questions. Um, this is where I do find value in, like, a tool like chat GPT, because it can often help you take something that isn't that curiosity inspiring and turn it into something that's curiosity inspiring because it does a good job of, like, asking how can I make this now about them versus me?

Larry Roberts [00:19:14]:

See, and I, I'm sitting here thinking about the curious aspect of things and I'm going back to a conversation I had, uh, one day late last week. I went to dinner with a gentleman and we were talking about sales and how early on entrepreneurs that are trying to build their brand, they're so desperate to make the sale. And we also hear from influencers like the Gary Vee's and the Grant cardone's and Alex Ramozzis and all the, all the big sales, salesy influencers where you just give everything away for free. And we see so many people that do that and then they're like, well, how come I'm not selling nothing? How come I'm not making any money? Well, you're giving it all away for free. So I was talking to this gentleman, he's an amazing sales coach. And he goes, well, here's what I do, and this is why I'm making money. And, well, he didn't say and you're not. But he did say that.

Larry Roberts [00:20:00]:

I just don't want to admit it. And he goes, and you're not. He goes, because I tell them that they need to do it and I tell them what the results going to be, but I don't tell them how. So I, the sales process is generating that curiosity of how do I go from point a to point c without giving away point b. So you have to generate that curiosity and you have to get them intrigued and engaged with your process and you as an individual and you as your brand in order to take it to that final step. And I think we're, so many of us that are, that are new business owners or small business owners, we're missing out on generating that curiosity. So here's how I frame this question. How do we approach this in a way where we can excel by creating curiosity in whatever our service or our product is.

Emily Aborn [00:20:52]:

So I love what that, I don't know his name, but I love what the sales guy said to you. And I kind of have the same philosophy when it comes to like my own podcast, which is like kind of spoon feeding people everything, you know, where if they were to sit down and like literally write down everything you said, they probably could do it themselves, right. But you are kind of creating this body, I guess, of content or body of work that helps keep them engaged and keep them going, but they're never really getting like, they're not like having you implement or apply it, right. So specific to their business too, that's the other key, I think, with. With going back to the open loops, like, I'm never specifically telling somebody, you should do this, because I don't know their. Their unique business, you know? So I think, like, keeping things. In this case, I guess keeping things, like, a little more vague and open ended is good, but using specific. Still using specific examples.

Emily Aborn [00:21:50]:

But, yeah, I think that's my answer.

Larry Roberts [00:21:52]:

Okay. Okay.

Sara Lohse [00:21:54]:

I think I do kind of the opposite, maybe. So I will tell people how to do what I do, and that's for, like, a very specific reason. Like, when I go on podcasts or write anything, and if they don't have the budget to pay me and they can go do it themselves, I'm not losing anything because they wouldn't have paid me anyway. But if they do have the budget, they would rather pay me to do it, because knowing that I know how to do it and I can do it well, then have to learn how to do it themselves, because their money isn't worth as much of their time. And by telling them how to do it, I just proved I know how to do it. I feel like that might be the opposite.

Emily Aborn [00:22:40]:

I think it's the same. I'm. Yeah, I'm talking about the same. I think I'm talking more from a philosophical perspective, and you're talking more from a how to. So it's, like, actually perfect, but, like, I. I will pretty much tell them everything I do. It's different with. I mean, for both of us, it's a little bit different because, like, writing and brand, like, actually creating things visually is slightly different.

Emily Aborn [00:23:04]:

Maybe. Sort of. Not really.

Sara Lohse [00:23:06]:

You can't teach someone to write.

Emily Aborn [00:23:08]:

Yeah, no, I think you can. I don't know.

Sara Lohse [00:23:13]:

I was a copywriter by trade. Like, my background was copy, and I was asked several times, like, teach someone how to write better, and, like, I can't. I can teach you better grammar. I could teach you sentence structure, but if you're not a writer, I can't teach you how to write.

Emily Aborn [00:23:29]:

I know. I'm, like, 50% with you. It depends, but. No, I think I'm with you.

Larry Roberts [00:23:37]:

Expand on it a little bit. Emily. I'd love to hear your perspective. If you're only 50% on with her, what's the 50% that you're countering with?

Emily Aborn [00:23:46]:

No, I think I'm 100% with you, Sara.

Sara Lohse [00:23:48]:

Oh.

Larry Roberts [00:23:48]:

I just called you on the carpet, and you changed your position.

Emily Aborn [00:23:51]:

Oh, I need a time. I need time sometimes to think on things.

Sara Lohse [00:23:57]:

I think that's true of, like, a lot of things, though. Like, there's so many things that are. They have to almost have to come.

Emily Aborn [00:24:03]:

Naturally, but I don't. So then I don't know if you could teach somebody logo and branding, because I think some people just have it and some people don't exactly like graphic design.

Sara Lohse [00:24:13]:

It's like, if you can't look at something and know, like, that's good or that's bad. Yeah, you can't teach that.

Emily Aborn [00:24:19]:

So that's why we spoon feed them. And then they say, I need your help.

Larry Roberts [00:24:25]:

And I think that. I think maybe you're spot on there with the spoon feeding. You know, you don't just give them the whole feast. You just give them a little taste and a little bite and go, here's kind of what you're looking at. And that's something that I've noticed over the years, being the. I don't even know if I still am, but I was a massive Gary Vee fan. And if. Even if you go to his content today, it's like, how to rule social media in 2024.

Larry Roberts [00:24:51]:

And you watch the video and you're like, he didn't even say anything about how to do social media at all. I don't even know what he said. I don't. I'm looking for step. I'm dumb. Give me ten steps. Okay. If you want to rule something, do this, do this, do this.

Larry Roberts [00:25:06]:

And this is the result. But so I don't know that he's giving things away, and I'm really curious. That's about the 32nd time we've said that word in 25 minutes. But anyways, I am curious as to how you do that, because I'd almost feel like it's a lie, you know? It almost feels like he's like a bait. Yeah, it's almost like a bait and switch. Yeah, probably. Yeah, all those things. Illusion.

Emily Aborn [00:25:32]:

Yeah, I'm definitely not talking about being bait and switch or oops, do we lose her?

Larry Roberts [00:25:37]:

I got tired of her shit. I'm just kidding. Not really. Yeah, I guess her Internet dropped, apparently. Mm hmm. Just wait.

Emily Aborn [00:25:54]:

Sara, we missed you.

Sara Lohse [00:25:57]:

I got kicked out of Emily was.

Larry Roberts [00:25:59]:

Like, I'm so glad she's gone. Yeah, me too. It's cool.

Emily Aborn [00:26:03]:

He literally has a recording. I did not.

Larry Roberts [00:26:08]:

He literally has a recording.

Sara Lohse [00:26:10]:

I got kicked out. Anyway. Bait and switches.

Larry Roberts [00:26:13]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aborn [00:26:14]:

I'm definitely not talking about that. I really do stand by. Like, I think you can give people, like, the step by step, but break it down. That maybe the problem with the folks you were talking about let, like, give it all away is they do it all at once. And then people are like, okay, this is overwhelming and they never actually take any action towards it. And then they also never take any action towards reaching out and hiring the person because it's overwhelming. Like, how many of those PDF's have you downloaded that tell you exactly how to do XYz? And you're like, okay, I'll never do that.

Sara Lohse [00:26:46]:

I am 100% guilty of being that person. I've spoken for our friend Alex and Filippo at his events and I send him the video of my presentation and then I watch it on the event and I'm like, who let me do this? I have crammed like 5 hours worth of content into 15 minutes. People are like, can we watch this on like half speed? What is happening? I'm like, well, if I'm going to teach you how to do this, then you also have to know this and you have to know how to do this. And you need all of this back knowledge. Let me teach you that.

Emily Aborn [00:27:16]:

I think we've all done that. And I think that is an exact, like, curiosity. Not, I don't like to say killer, but it does shut it down because people are like, okay, great. And they feel overwhelmed. It's like, like, it's like when you add way too much jalapeno or cayenne pepper to something, you're like, no longer can I eat this. But a little spice was nice.

Sara Lohse [00:27:36]:

That is a great.

Emily Aborn [00:27:37]:

Ask me.

Larry Roberts [00:27:37]:

That's an amazing no. So, Emily, do you know Alex? Are you friends with Alex? Just out of here.

Emily Aborn [00:27:43]:

I am on Pod match. I have. I hope we're becoming friends. I want to be BFF's. I did submit a video for the upcoming podcast event and it got selected and it's on bio writing and how we can, like add curiosity to our bios because you guys made a fantastic point in your pitching, which I could do like 30 episodes on podcast pitching. Yeah. And I look back at my pitch tears and I'm like, this could have actually been a little bit better.

Larry Roberts [00:28:11]:

That worked.

Emily Aborn [00:28:12]:

I could have binged the episodes before I wrote to you. That would have been.

Sara Lohse [00:28:15]:

I'm curious, what did you say?

Emily Aborn [00:28:17]:

I just said like, hi, you guys sound like so much fun. Which you do. But it was a little like, it was like, okay, you could have.

Larry Roberts [00:28:26]:

We've. We've laughed a lot on this episode. I can tell you that that is true. But, you know, it's funny. Cause Sara and I, we go through pod match and we get on here. We actually, we get on Zoom. And we go through all of the submissions. We go, what about this person? No, probably not.

Larry Roberts [00:28:39]:

What about this person? Oh, that sounds fun. Oh, she sounds cool. Let's try. Let's check that out. So your pitch was effective, I'll tell you that.

Sara Lohse [00:28:47]:

Hi, Sara and Larry. You two are a lot of fun. I would love to have a conversation with you. As a cop. Grader helps people with brand messaging on how our brands can actually spark more curiosity. We can chat about do's and don'ts when it comes to creating curiosity, a pulse spark in your copy. Simple actions to take and how it aligns with everything you folks help people with as well. See, this is a really good one.

Emily Aborn [00:29:07]:

Okay.

Sara Lohse [00:29:08]:

And, I mean, I, like, I could talk about pitching all day, too. So you didn't give a. Like, a massive bio. You just said, like, as a copywriter helps people with brand messaging. That's all we need to know about, like, your job, so that we know that you are capable of having that conversation. And you gave us a hook, which, like, sparking curiosity sparks curiosity. So, like, that's already a hook. And then you said the do's and don'ts, simple actions.

Sara Lohse [00:29:36]:

Like, that's proven that you're going to bring value. So you nailed it.

Emily Aborn [00:29:39]:

Okay. This is great that we use this as an example, because we're literally showing how to. This is what I talk to all the time, is, like, when you're pitching or using your bio, not using all of this industry jargon that only you care about. Like, how many bios have you read that all say nothing because they say everything about their industry or everything about what they've accomplished. So I think this is a good. Like, we used a fun example, which I didn't expect to happen, so now I'm feeling nervous.

Sara Lohse [00:30:10]:

Oh, I guess to talk about pitching and guessing, and people have, like, actually read my pitches multiple times on podcasts, so, like, I have to do it to somebody.

Emily Aborn [00:30:19]:

I had a guest show called she built this, which I recently. Sunset sundown. I don't know the term, but we let that go.

Larry Roberts [00:30:27]:

Killed.

Emily Aborn [00:30:28]:

You hilled. Yes. And. And I would get the most off. I still get awful pitches. I'm like, okay, first of all, if you notice, maybe the last episode is called the last episode. That would be the place to probably start with the pitch. But secondly, no, no, no.

Sara Lohse [00:30:48]:

I spoke about this at the badass business summit last week, and I screenshot pitches that we've gotten for Brandon and put them in the presentation, and I just put them up. I'm like, all right, y'all tell me what's wrong with this.

Emily Aborn [00:31:01]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:31:01]:

And one of them was subtle because it was like, I loved your conversation with one of the guests talking about something, and the topic was just completely wrong. Like, you're talking about, like, brand building. I'm like, we talked about taxes on that episode.

Emily Aborn [00:31:15]:

My favorite. You said that. You said, we don't want to talk to authors about their books.

Sara Lohse [00:31:21]:

Yeah, no, yeah, but if I constantly.

Emily Aborn [00:31:25]:

Bring up my book, feed us all the information, but you're spoon feeding us the information in your book, then I want to have a conversation about it.

Larry Roberts [00:31:32]:

100%.

Sara Lohse [00:31:34]:

We don't want to hear about your book. We want to hear about content that's in your book.

Emily Aborn [00:31:38]:

Yeah, yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:31:39]:

Much different.

Larry Roberts [00:31:40]:

So, Emily, I want to hear about your podcast. You brought it up a couple of times. What. What's your show?

Emily Aborn [00:31:45]:

My show is called content with character, and it's all about, like, you know, not just content and creating more. More and putting it out into the ether, but really, like, infusing our personality into it, too, which I think when you start using your personality in any branding that you're doing, that's how you create. That's how you create curiosity. That's like. Like all of the big brands. I know I don't need to tell you to this, but all of the big brands still use personality in their branding.

Larry Roberts [00:32:14]:

Yeah. It's funny because we were lost there again for a second there, but she's back. But we were both at that badass business summit last week, and I was talking about AI and thought leadership, and I was trying to use the word iterative and it would not come out. It was just. And I just spazzed right there. I was like. And I finally just said, that's the remix. And then I went to say it again and it still wouldn't come out.

Larry Roberts [00:32:43]:

And I finally just had to say effort and move on, and I use that. Sara happened to be. She recorded. She did some recording for me. She happened to catch that clip, and I put that out as a reel and a tick tock and a video, and, dude, people are loving it. They were eating it up because it showed my personality, you know, and it showed vulnerability and it showed. Well, I have no idea what happened with that word, but. But they loved it because it showed that personality.

Larry Roberts [00:33:10]:

So I love the fact that that's what you talk about and you bring that to the forefront because so many times people lose that, especially new podcasters.

Sara Lohse [00:33:20]:

Yeah.

Emily Aborn [00:33:20]:

I can't remember where I first heard this but I heard, like, pot. Like, when I started my podcast, I used to edit out every. Every, like, sip of water I took. Like, I would go through it with a fine tooth comb.

Larry Roberts [00:33:31]:

Oh, yeah.

Emily Aborn [00:33:32]:

And then I heard something that was like, when we say, ah. And, um, there's actually, like, a evolutionary reason behind it, and people react in different ways and it humanizes you. So every mistake you make on stage or in this interview, which we've all made a couple, it humanizes us. And people are like, oh, I actually like them better now because they've made a mistake. And so I think it's a good reminder, not that we want to be, like, walking around, like, a hot mess, but if you just so happen to be, you're going to be the most relatable person on the planet. Go you.

Larry Roberts [00:34:06]:

Well, hey, Emily, I'd love for people to be able to relate to you even more. So. So take a minute, tell people where they can find you.

Emily Aborn [00:34:14]:

Okay, awesome. So the easiest place to find me in all the places you like to hang out is emilyaborn.com. and it's like acorn with a b.

Larry Roberts [00:34:23]:

That's awesome. Whose dog?

Emily Aborn [00:34:26]:

That's my dog.

Larry Roberts [00:34:27]:

That's your dog.

Emily Aborn [00:34:30]:

Ending us.

Sara Lohse [00:34:31]:

It wasn't mine this time.

Larry Roberts [00:34:32]:

I know. I was like, all right, well, it didn't sound like you're dead.

Emily Aborn [00:34:35]:

They're upstairs.

Larry Roberts [00:34:36]:

Don't even sweat. It's all good. This is that humanity. This is that human side of things. So I love it. I'm glad that Clyde got in on the episode. I wanted to meet Clyde anyhow. So, anyways, Emily, thank you so much for joining us on this episode.

Larry Roberts [00:34:48]:

I had fun. Hopefully you had fun. And I think we were able to deliver some. Some value when it comes to curiosity as well.

Emily Aborn [00:34:55]:

Thank you both so much for having me. It was awesome to meet you.

Larry Roberts [00:34:59]:

That's cool. Mandy, you were listening to this episode, and, well, you managed to make it through even with Sara cutting in and out on us. Do us a favor and slam that subscribe button so we can continue to bring you these very human episodes each and every week. And with that, I'm Larry Roberts.

Sara Lohse [00:35:16]:

I'm Sara Lohse, and we'll talk to you next week.