Crafting the Perfect Website: Roger Jorns on SEO and Design Strategies

Larry Roberts [00:00:09]:

What is happening, everybody? I'm Larry Roberts.

Sara Lohse [00:00:12]:

And I'm Sara Lohse. And this is Branded, Your comprehensive guide to creative branding.

Larry Roberts [00:00:16]:

And on this episode of the podcast, we are lucky enough to have someone that ties directly into our 2025 goals episode. If you listen to that episode, you will know that we talked about having great website is absolutely critical to establishing a very strong personal and even professional brand. And we have a guest today that's going to help us just dial in what we need to do to make that website really stand out. Our guest today, we met him at Babs. And you know, ironically, I'm getting choked up because Babs brings back memories. No, I'm getting choked up because, I don't know. Am I getting sick? I don't even know. All the snow that we're having up here got me jacked up.

Larry Roberts [00:00:58]:

But we met this gentleman at the Badass Business Summit, and we've had several guests on from the Badass Business Summit. And that just goes to show you how strong that conference really is. But Roger Jorns joins us today. Say Jorns and join simultaneously. That's. That's a bit of a tongue twister. Roger is the founder of Reanimation Design, a web design and marketing company that specializes in helping you get found on Google through SEO and better website design so that you can tell your story. And we're all about telling your story here.

Larry Roberts [00:01:28]:

So he has a wonderful wife who for some reason loves him, and he has two wonderful boys. He loves tacos, but, I mean. Yeah, exactly. So everybody loves tacos. Reading comics. All right, I can feel you there. And the occasional video game when he isn't working. Roger, thanks for taking the time to join us this morning.

Roger Jorns [00:01:49]:

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I'm really looking forward to it.

Sara Lohse [00:01:52]:

I can join you on the tacos thing, but you're gonna have to talk to Larry for the comics and video games.

Larry Roberts [00:01:59]:

I may or may not have been playing World of Warcraft before we jumped on this call. So, I mean, I'm. I'm not gonna admit anything. That's the last thing I should be doing this morning.

Roger Jorns [00:02:07]:

But, yeah, I can either confirm nor deny.

Larry Roberts [00:02:10]:

Yeah, yeah. 100. 100.

Sara Lohse [00:02:12]:

Man, I was doing a puzzle.

Larry Roberts [00:02:14]:

Oh, See? Just. Just. Just as productive. So I. I don't. I don't feel nearly as bad.

Sara Lohse [00:02:18]:

You're doing great. Clients don't listen to this.

Larry Roberts [00:02:21]:

Yeah, yeah. Please, please, please. Nobody.

Roger Jorns [00:02:22]:

Yeah, I was drinking some coffee, and I thought to myself, can I jump on? Like, can I Jump on. Just like really quick to play something. I was like, no, I got, I gotta jump on, I gotta do some stuff.

Larry Roberts [00:02:31]:

Yeah, yeah. It's funny because no, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna go on a video game tangent. I'm not doing it. So Roger, tell us, man, how did you get into web design? And I love the fact that you call your company Reanimation Design. Tell us all about that, man.

Roger Jorns [00:02:47]:

Yeah, so I had started to look at, you know, what is websites and what is web design. And you know, when I was in college, it was really cool because you could see how the web, you know, the Internet was kind of starting to get these, you know, websites. And I was like, oh, well, I want to, you know, I want to know how do you do that? And when I was in college, it was more along the lines of, oh, well, you know, if you want to learn stuff like that, the kind of broad general consensus is, well, you have to like either graphic design or you have to do computer programming. And I was like, well, I don't really want to do both of those things or either one of those things. I just want to know what it means to, you know, do web design and stuff. And you know, you had all these other YouTube wasn't out to where it was like, oh, you can just kind of teach yourself sort of thing, right? Sure. So eventually I was like, well, let me, let me really check this out. Let me see what I can do.

Roger Jorns [00:03:35]:

And so I just kind of continued on with what I was doing with my degree. And even through that I was still trying to figure out, well, how can I do web design? So I really self taught myself how to do it. So YouTube started coming around. It took some online courses, took some like UX certificates and, and boot camps and all that. And so really kind of just taught myself and kind of through trial and error and just started seeing some companies around like, hey, can I make your website? I know it's not good. I don't know a lot, but I do know it. It's probably not that that is garbage. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Roger Jorns [00:04:04]:

I don't know what I'm doing, but I do know that I'm no more than that. But it was really cool just to kind of learn that. And so really kind of as I've been doing that, kind of teaching myself and learning, okay, well, you know, you're moving all these boxes and you know you're putting them, but why are you putting them in that? In that way, you know, why is it that you have this hero image? Why is it that you have this next section and how are you rearranging these boxes and how are you telling a story? How are you call into action? How are you, you know, helping the people lean into that conversation so they actually want to scroll down? And so that's really kind of what I've been doing. And in 2023 I decided, hey, I'm gonna go ahead and just start a company, reanimation Design and just start really helping people, you know, with the Google business profiles getting found online, better website design. And that's really kind of my forte is really kind of helping them think through, you know, their website in, in a more structural pattern instead of like, well, it's kind of like a brochure now in, you know, there's touch points and there's different things, but it's really helping them think through, well, what pain point are you solving and what is that thing that you're trying to help them accomplish? And so that, that, that's really what I enjoy doing.

Sara Lohse [00:05:11]:

I just want to thank our guests here in 2025 because this is the year I turned 30 and I'm feeling really old until I talk to people that are like, yeah, remember when websites weren't a thing? And our last guest who's like, yeah, I started my first job the year before you were born. I'm feeling young and I really, you know, being six months from 30, I needed that. So thank you.

Roger Jorns [00:05:34]:

Yo, you're welcome. You're welcome.

Larry Roberts [00:05:37]:

That's awesome. That's awesome. That's great. No, but I, you know, I'm in that same demographic. I remember back I started developing websites with Dreamweaver and I taught myself Dreamweaver back in the day and started building sites from that. And I mean, I got to where I could build some pretty robust sites. Now I didn't really have any technical training, but they look cool, tell you that. So let me ask you this because people now can really build some, some robust looking sites on their own typically.

Larry Roberts [00:06:08]:

And they don't have to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to get something that looks cool. But you had mentioned that you were analyzing it from a structural perspective. When you look at a website that way, what do people need to take into consideration from a structural perspective that will help them leverage that site to accomplish the goals that they have for the site.

Roger Jorns [00:06:27]:

Yeah, no, that's, that's something that I don't think a lot of people do, do think about a lot of Times maybe they're using a template. And really quick about the Dreamweaver. Actually was talking to somebody one day and I said, hey, had a question about your website. And they said, oh, actually, yeah, no, I've had this up for like 20 something years. And I. And it's on Dreamweaver. And I was like, oh my gosh, it was like legitimately still on Dreamweaver. And so that was really funny.

Roger Jorns [00:06:49]:

But structure wise, it was like a program that like before it was basically like, well, it's kind of hard to explain now because it's like think of it kind of.

Larry Roberts [00:06:59]:

I would think of it kind of like Elementor. Not nearly as convenient.

Roger Jorns [00:07:04]:

Yeah.

Larry Roberts [00:07:05]:

As Elementor is. So yeah, it's a development platform is all it is.

Roger Jorns [00:07:09]:

Yeah, yeah, I'm a baby. So structure wise, I think it's really kind of more thinking about like. So for instance, a lot of times when I'm looking at websites, the one thing that is usually missing is like a call to action. Right the top. And so maybe they're just being kind of vague at what they do or they're being too wordy with what they do. So maybe they're, you know, they're using these kind of really large big words. And I always say you want to kind of make sure that you're really only like using like a one, maybe two syllable word when you, when you put something on your hero image, which is like when people first get to your website but they don't have a call to action and it's just like, hey, this is what we do. And again, they're either not clear or they're too wordy and it's just kind of, it's vague, it's too wordy.

Roger Jorns [00:07:54]:

They're not really too sure. And so you're not, you're not really sure what you want them to do. And that's kind of like an older mindset, which, you know, it, it tracks is like, oh, people are going to scroll down the website, but they're not going to do that anymore if you don't tell them what you're going to do and the problem that you're solving and their pain point within that, like five seconds, they're not going to want to stay on there. They're going to be like, oh, well, because they want to be kind of be told what to do. Right. So it's like, oh, you know, I, I need to know. Yes, I do want to buy this now or I do want to download this now or I do want to find out more. You know, I do want to do this action, right? You know, lose weight in 30 days or you know, get the five best chocolate chip recipe, chocolate chip cookie recipes or something like that.

Roger Jorns [00:08:37]:

Right? Like they want to know. Yeah, yeah. So they want something that is going to tell them what to do, you know, and yeah, and that, that's probably the biggest thing that I see is they're not being clear enough on the hero where it could be super generic or it's too wording and then you're not telling them what you want them to do. And, and so, and, and a lot of times with that call to action, it's just learn more. And while that works in some like B2B enterprise, like kind of like high level stuff, most of the time you're not going to want to be learned more. That could be your secondary call to action and you want to think about your customer buyer journey. You know, like, well, maybe they're not ready for that first action. They may be ready for that second action because they want to learn more about this product or learn, you know, learn how such and such can help you do this thing, you know, taking them on that journey.

Roger Jorns [00:09:28]:

But a lot of times call to actions are going to be so call to action and not being clear on the hero image is going to be probably two of the biggest things because that's the first thing that people see when they get to your page.

Sara Lohse [00:09:40]:

So if not learn more, what should it be?

Roger Jorns [00:09:44]:

Yeah, you want it to be active. So learn more is. So if learn more is your only thing on there, again, something like, you know, like I'm talking like a big enterprise. So Zoom uses or is it Zoom? It's like Zoom or like one of those platforms they use learn more. But that's because they also talk about that in their, in their hero image and they also have, you know, like an actual call to action on the top. Right. But you want it to be something a little bit more like yes, let's get started. And so you're telling them, hey, I help take companies from, you know, zero employees to five employees in 30 days guaranteed.

Roger Jorns [00:10:17]:

Something like that, right. I'm just making something up. And then it's like, yes, let's get started or book a call or yes, I want to know how to do fill in the blank. Right? And then that is going to be that first one. And you want it to be very like clear as to what you want them to do. Because again, they may not 100% right. You may have a product that's not a buy now sort of situation. It needs to be a booking, you know, like a call or something like that.

Roger Jorns [00:10:41]:

Sometimes you'll see those things where it'll say, you know, get a demo of this or see how this can, you know, see how, see how I can help you in 30 days or something like that. Learn more is good. If you're going to have them like a demo or learn more about this product, which then takes them maybe to your service page, takes them to a product page, which then, you know, gives a little bit more information about said product or said service. And then you're going to want to continue those call to actions down there. Like, okay, yeah, now I'm ready because now they get it a little bit more. Maybe they need some more information. Information.

Larry Roberts [00:11:14]:

So you, you keep mentioning the hero image.

Roger Jorns [00:11:16]:

Yeah.

Larry Roberts [00:11:16]:

Define what a hero image is.

Roger Jorns [00:11:19]:

Yeah. So that's going to be. So when people first get to your website, it's going to be that first thing that they see. And there's a lot of different ways that you can do it. You can either the traditional way is, you know, just have a white background or whatever and you just have your, your big hey, this is what I do. This is how I can help you, you know, with the results. And then your call to action. Or you can have it for the image itself.

Roger Jorns [00:11:42]:

You can do a couple of different things. You can have it be where. And this is usually what you'll see is you'll have the image as the background and then there's some sort of like overlay over it, you know, and sometimes now that's a video and you want it to relate to whatever it is that you do. So if you're, you know, a dog walker, you want to maybe show pictures of dogs or them walking or somebody walking the dog or you know, something outside. Or you can have a hero image instead of it being the main focus of the page, where it's behind everything thing, you can have it be on the right hand side. You know, we, we typically read, you know, left to right and stuff. And obviously it would depend on which country you're in and how the culture does that. But we typically read, you know, left to right.

Roger Jorns [00:12:25]:

So you're going to want to have, instead of having the background as the image, you have the image on the right hand side and the text on the left hand as well as the call to action. And that hero image, again, you wanted to, you want it to relate to what you're doing, but also in a way kind of show like, hey, you know, this is the result. So, you know, someone that's happy about something or, you know, people that are, you know, if you're like a leadership coach helping, you know, showing people that are, you know, working together closely or, you know, whatever kind of like the positive result of working kind of that ideal, like, oh, yeah, like I could, I could do that. You know, like they can kind of almost see themselves there or, you know, something that shows a positive result of working with you. And that would be your hero image, because that's going to give them that. Okay. Yeah, that's what I know you know, is happening with, with what your product or service is.

Sara Lohse [00:13:16]:

There's also some psychology that can go into it, which I think is really interesting because there's been a lot of research in like eye tracking and where people's eyes go when you're on a website and Larry, you're just making me dizzy. I don't want to track your eyes right now, but if you have like a person in that image, they should be looking towards the button for your call to action. If there's an arrow or if someone's like pointing. I've seen this where it's someone like they're fishing on a dock or something and they're pointing off to the distance. But they're actually set up so that the button is what they're pointing to. Because as people, we naturally are going to follow what other people are doing. So if they're pointing that way, we're going to look that way. If they're looking off that way, we're going to look that way.

Sara Lohse [00:14:05]:

So you're using those images to actually guide people to your call to action button.

Roger Jorns [00:14:10]:

Yeah, yeah. That's huge because that's like. Especially if you're using. Because what you're talking about is like the F pattern. So people left, they'll go and then they'll scroll down and then they'll look again. So, yeah, that, that's huge to be able to do that.

Sara Lohse [00:14:22]:

So if people are coming to you because they already have a website, but it's not good. What are the worst things you've ever seen on a website that you're just like, how did you actually let this be on your site?

Roger Jorns [00:14:34]:

Yeah, a lot of times it's broken images. That's that, that's one thing, not being mobile friendly. So there was. Yeah, like one time it was a website and it was like, you know, the same thing that you saw. It was just like seeing it super close, like on your mobile device and you could only see like the top left corner and it was like, oh, okay. I'm not sure how you did that. I would, I would say those probably. Those are actually quite common.

Roger Jorns [00:15:00]:

Seeing broken images, not being mobile, responsive or. I've seen also this, I've seen also a couple times where I'm like, oh, this is actually not too bad. And I scrolled all the way to the bottom and I'm like, oh, all the stuff that you need to have at the top, you literally have it at the bottom. And I can guarantee you nobody is going in there. And so I was like, if you literally just like reverse your site, then it would actually, it'd actually be okay. Like, it'd be. You'd be off to a better start than you are right now. But.

Roger Jorns [00:15:30]:

And then also I've also seen color unreadable fonts. Unreadable colors. Like, you're like, oh my gosh, what in the world? You know, whether it's like it like.

Sara Lohse [00:15:40]:

Hurts to look at.

Roger Jorns [00:15:41]:

Yeah. You're like, oh, man, like, that is too bright. Or, you know, you're like, I don't know where the image is at because, like, I don't know where the image is and the font is because it all kind of blends together. So those are, those have been probably some of the worst things that I've seen.

Sara Lohse [00:15:54]:

I had one person show me a website and all I could do was just stare at it in horror.

Roger Jorns [00:16:01]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:16:02]:

And it was just like a one page thing. And they. This was a client that I'm not working with anymore, but they even said after I gave them a list of what they should change, like, we're not open to changes or we're not open to suggestions. Like, why are you paying me? But every single word was in all caps.

Roger Jorns [00:16:24]:

Oh, man.

Sara Lohse [00:16:25]:

No, we don't. You don't do that. It's harder to read. Like our brains.

Larry Roberts [00:16:30]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:16:31]:

For people. If you don't know this, when you're looking at a word, your brain doesn't actually read the letters. The first thing it does is recognize the shape.

Roger Jorns [00:16:39]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:16:39]:

So if it's all in caps, everything has the same shape. It's just a rectangle. So it's actually harder to read and you read it more slowly.

Roger Jorns [00:16:46]:

Yeah, yeah. And you get like brain fatigue and you're like, I'm not gonna.

Sara Lohse [00:16:49]:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But they also, they were following like the story brand structure, which I'm sure you're familiar with. And I like the story brand structure. I use it.

Roger Jorns [00:16:59]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:17:00]:

But basically what they did was take like, here's what you should put, and just put it there. And so it's like, if you are a person who needs this, you should buy this. But it didn't give any information. Yeah, I'm like, the only reason I know I should buy this is that you clearly really want me to.

Roger Jorns [00:17:18]:

Right? Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:17:19]:

Every single section was just like, so buy it. Yeah, I have this thing, so buy it.

Roger Jorns [00:17:24]:

Yeah, here's the book.

Sara Lohse [00:17:25]:

Oh, my God, it was so bad. Yeah, don't do any of that.

Roger Jorns [00:17:28]:

Right? Man.

Larry Roberts [00:17:29]:

You know, the one thing I'm picking up out of, well, I'm picking up a lot. But one of the things that's really jumping out at me in this conversation is that especially if you're like a podcaster, you're typically programmed to put that CTA at the end of every episode. But from a website perspective, it's almost like you have to think in reverse because you want that CTA at the top so they understand what you're offering, what you're doing and what you can do for them.

Roger Jorns [00:17:56]:

Yeah.

Larry Roberts [00:17:57]:

Is that right?

Roger Jorns [00:17:58]:

Yeah. And. And, you know, it's one of those things where something that I'm talking to a lot more clients now is about that, that customer buyer journey where, okay, what is. I always ask them, if there was only one thing they got to your website and there was only one thing that you wanted them to do, what would that one thing be? And they, you know, I want them to book a call or I want them to, you know, go to, you know, buy this product, this course, whatever. If that is the only thing that they can do that needs to be your main call to action, you can have then your secondary call to action, you know, so maybe it's like, hey, you can book a call, but on the top right hand side, you can. So you have, you know, the. On the left hand side, it says, yes, let's get started, book a call or something. And then on the top right hand it says, you know, your phone number, something like that, because you're a local business.

Roger Jorns [00:18:42]:

But then really what that is is that, okay, so they've leaned into the conversation. And I always tell them, like, look, most likely they're not going to be ready to buy yet, right? Unless they've already, you know, if this is their first touch point, they're going to need at least 8 more probably before they actually really want to start to buy. And you're really going to have to show them, like, hey, I really understand. So you're going to repeat that call to action throughout. And, you know, sometimes people say, like, you can change up the call to action. You want to keep it the same. You know, it just kind of depends. But really, that call to action is just like you said, it's.

Roger Jorns [00:19:15]:

You're thinking in reverse because you want them to know what it is that you want them to do. You're kind of guiding them on that journey of this is what you want them to do. But again, they may not be ready yet. And so maybe they. They have been reading your page and they're like, oh, this is kind of interesting. And they go and they look and then it's like, oh, yeah, that's right. Larry wanted me to book a call or he wanted me to download this thing or he wanted me to do that. So you're just kind of reminding them, you know, over and over.

Roger Jorns [00:19:39]:

Because it's just a, you know, like, hey, like, yes, like, let's get started. And it is kind of weird because it's one of those things that, like, you know, I. So I used to work at Best Buy, and, like, when people And I worked in the TV department, and the first thing, I wasn't going to be like, yeah, this is the LG OLED C10. Are you ready to buy it? Like. Like, that's not, you know, just like, click here and then you can just buy it. You know, we had to talk about it. You know, we talk about those different things. So it is.

Roger Jorns [00:20:05]:

It's kind of one of those weird things. However, though, when they come into the store, even if they're not going to buy that day, they know that coming into the store, that that's what it's for, that it's not a museum, you know, that it's not restaurant, but that they want you to buy. I always use the illustration of, like, when you walk into Olive Garden, you're not just, like, walking in and, like, kind of looking around and, like, checking out, saying, hey, what's up to the kitchen, guys? And just kind of, you know, talking to the waiters and then be like, all right, cool. I'm going to just walk out. You know, like, you're not like, wondering, like, gee, I wonder what Olive Garden wants me to do? No, because, like, as soon as you walk in, they're gonna have the, you know, 9.99 meal. They're gonna have all of these specials. You know, they're gonna have different things. And, you know, coming into it, that, hey, I need to buy something.

Roger Jorns [00:20:48]:

Like, that's what I'm here for. So grab the breadsticks and walk out, guys.

Sara Lohse [00:20:51]:

Grab the breadsticks and.

Larry Roberts [00:20:53]:

No, no, no, no. You eat the salad, you eat the breadsticks, and you get the chicken fettuccine Alfredo.

Sara Lohse [00:20:59]:

You really touched a sensitive point here.

Larry Roberts [00:21:01]:

You just go. You just get in there, you dive in, you get all on your face, and you just. You get that breadstick and you slop up the rest of the cheeses left over, and you have an amazing comfort meal.

Sara Lohse [00:21:13]:

No. Larry is so pro Olive Garden. I am so anti Olive Garden. It is just the Italian Applebee's.

Larry Roberts [00:21:21]:

No. And that's fine. That's fine. I mean, if there's a chain restaurant that is a favorite. No, there's no debate. It is Olive Garden. It is my favorite.

Roger Jorns [00:21:29]:

And, you know, years ago, they used.

Larry Roberts [00:21:31]:

To have 10:30 here. It's not too early for chicken fettuccine Alfredo, I'll tell you that.

Roger Jorns [00:21:37]:

Years ago, they used to have this one. It was like a chicken. Not chicken parmigiani, but it was like. Like where they, you know, they split the chicken breast and then they, like, cheese or something like that in it, and they don't have that anymore. And that was like my favorite thing.

Larry Roberts [00:21:49]:

Oh, that sounds amazing.

Roger Jorns [00:21:51]:

Yeah. Yeah, it was. I can't. I can't for the life of me. I'll. I'll think of it as soon as we, like, hang up or something.

Larry Roberts [00:21:55]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:21:55]:

This episode is brought to you by Crappy Italian Food.

Larry Roberts [00:21:59]:

And you know what sucks is I've snowed in. I can't even leave after this episode to go get some og. And I would love to have. I wonder if. I wonder if I can get, like, doordash to bring me some og. I don't know. I feel bad endangering their lives just so I can have some Genie Alfredo, though. But anyways, we got off on a OG tangent, so that.

Larry Roberts [00:22:18]:

That happens. Well, I mean, websites, everybody needs one, obviously. Everybody needs one. That's well designed, obviously. But when you have that website, we. We've all heard the term SEO, or search engine optimization to try driving organic traffic to our websites. But AI has come into the game now, and I'm seeing all kinds of headlines that SEO is dead. And then I see other headlines that say SEO is just evolving.

Larry Roberts [00:22:44]:

Can you give us your take on what SEO is all about as we sit here today?

Roger Jorns [00:22:49]:

Yeah, yeah, no, I think both. I think both of those have always been said, you know, oh, SEO is evolving. SEO's dead. You know, they. I think you'll hear it three times every year, you'll hear it at the beginning of the year, SEO is dead. Do this instead. In the middle of the year, SEO is dead because Google did this, you know, do this instead. And then at the end of the year, SEO is dead in 2026.

Roger Jorns [00:23:10]:

Do this and say so you always hear like the same thing. And I guarantee you'll hear that again every single year, three times a year minimum, you'll hear that. But SEO is evolving. Something that I always like to tell people. And this is so funny because I, I've been telling people this, I tell people that SEO is search engine optimization, right? But I tell people it's really, people are searching everywhere online and you want to make sure that you're showing up there. And it's funny because I've been saying that for the past year and now a lot of these big, like some of these places that I read, like Search engine land and different things, they're like, oh, now it's search everywhere optimization. And I was like, dang it, I should have done something. Because I've been telling people like, yeah, you got to search.

Roger Jorns [00:23:54]:

But that's part of that. But that's part of that, that buyer's journey, you know, that people are searching everywhere online. They really are, is that they're searching everywh. And you. And yes, in some ways, like there are certain things that will always die with SEO, right? Like, so, for instance, going back to what we had said, I was helping this client and I was looking at some of their competitors website and I was looking, I was looking at some of the code and I was looking at some of their SEO because I have some, like, you know, there's some free things that you can find to, or that you can use to kind of look at your SEO, other people's SEO on all that sort of stuff and how, how pages are structured. And I saw that there was this one thing and they had been using hidden text and years ago, hiding text, you know, so you take like, you know, whatever it is that you do in wherever place and you would just make that an H1 and then you would hide it so that people didn't see it. But you know, Google would crawl it and you would just do like keyword stuffing, right? So that stuff has died. So you don't want to do certain things that are no longer viable and good.

Roger Jorns [00:24:57]:

But it is always, it's always evolving and it's always changing. And so I think that those are really, I think the answer to the question, is SEO dead? Or, or is it changing? I think the answer is yes, because yes, certain things are dead and yes, certain things are changing with that.

Larry Roberts [00:25:14]:

Interesting. And kind of along those lines in discoverability, at least from a discoverability perspective. You know, back in the early 2000s, I, I built an entire business. I had a swimming pool company that I built me a beautiful website in Dreamweaver and I was leveraging Google AdWords and back then, back then Yahoo also had a pay per click platform that they leveraged. I can't remember what, what it was called, but it's, I don't think it's out there anymore. But I was able to, to build an entire business from zero, no clients up to the point where it got so big I had to sell it just using like Google AdWords and that Yahoo platform. And I don't know how familiar you are with necessarily pay per click campaigns or getting discoverability through pay per click campaigns, but what's your opinion on that? It doesn't seem to be as effective today as it was 20 years ago when I built Pristine pool and spa service.

Roger Jorns [00:26:11]:

One of the things that I talk to clients about sometimes is that there is a difference between like they're like. Well, when I was doing paid ads, my site was doing really well in that I was getting a lot of clicks. But then as soon as I stopped it, people started coming to my website. And that's one of the things that I don't think a lot of people always realize that there's a difference between organic search and then paid search. You know, so, so if you're doing really well in paid search but you're, but your website still isn't that great or it's just passable, then once you stop that then you know, because it was just passable. Well, now it's just passable. And now all the ones that are really good are really going to shoot up above you and they're going to continue to climb. So you're kind of getting this like false sense of security.

Roger Jorns [00:26:54]:

You know, I think one of the things that comes to paid ads is that I was actually just chatting with somebody the other day is that with the rise of AI and depending on, you know, and I don't know, all the intricacies of everything, but you know, Google is being, being sued is they're, they're going through this whole litigation thing with the government where they're, you know, they're saying like you have a monopoly, all this sort of stuff. And so Google understands and knows that hey, you know, searches are, is our Bread and butter. And so like they're willing to sell off like other things like, oh yeah, we'll get rid of Chrome and like, you know, this and other that. But they want to keep that search. And so now with AI starting that auto or not auto, the AI overviews that are now coming in now perplexity and all that sort of stuff and they're trying to put that into search. I think there's, there is this school of thought and I think that there, that there's something to that, that because you know, if AI overviews become so much even though that they put like three to five sources as to where they got this answer and they, they cobbled this answer together, people aren't necessarily clicking on those sources. So that means that if people can find the answer right there at the top and it's cited, then they'll be like, okay, cool, it's cited here, this is the answer. I'm not going to scroll any further.

Roger Jorns [00:28:14]:

And now you see AI overviews, then sometimes you see that section, people also ask and then you see paid ads. And then you see so organic is getting pushed down further on the page. And so if they get rid of that people also ask section and they just do that AI overview thing, then paid ads are probably just going to shoot right to the top. And so paid ads will probably become a little bit more important because now organic has been pushed so far to the bottom and people are just going to kind of click on the first thing that they see and all that. So I think that depending on how you do it, I think that paid ads can be very useful as long as you also. I think that the best way to do paid ads is that if you have a good strong website and you're using that to continue to supplement your website so that you can start having another source of referrals into your website. And then the important thing is that when they get to your website that they're actually staying on your website and that they're kind of clicking through, they're looking through different things and then maybe even later on they're looking for something. And that even though that you're an ad, you then come up organically and they click on the organic.

Roger Jorns [00:29:28]:

That's, that's kind of the idea, right? So yes, ads I think can be really good as long as you're site is, has a strong backbone.

Sara Lohse [00:29:35]:

Just thinking of all of those search engines that have died over the years, like bring back Ask Jeeves. Yeah, and like that one month where we had all Those commercials of like, just KGB it.

Larry Roberts [00:29:49]:

I don't, I don't remember that one.

Sara Lohse [00:29:50]:

Oh, yeah, there was kgb, there's Ask Jeeves. I mean, Bing, I guess still exists, but.

Larry Roberts [00:29:57]:

No, it doesn't existed. No, no, no. Nope. Dude, I used to love the new Hawaii Five zero. I used to watch that religiously and it would make me so mad when they would look at each other and go, hey, Bing it. And I'm like, bro, nobody, nobody says that.

Sara Lohse [00:30:11]:

Nobody is paying them to say it.

Larry Roberts [00:30:16]:

Completely just took me completely out of the episode. Because no one says that. Yeah, nobody says it, but, you know, you just kind of reinforced what, what my take on website sites is, is having a high quality website that looks good, that has a solid call to action, that really engages the visitor to the site. But at the same time, I'm not a big advocate of SEO because I, I, with, with organic search being the way that it is, you're going to have a hard time getting anybody there. So. And it's, you know, it's interesting because it's kind of the same with podcasts. Everybody's like, oh, you can organically grow your podcast. Sure, you can, if you want to start when you're 20 and finally have 10,000 followers when you're 80.

Larry Roberts [00:30:58]:

But if you use paid ads, you grow exponentially faster. And it's the same way with your website. If you. This is just my opinion. This, this isn't necessarily fact, but in my opinion, it's fact. But it's my show, so it's fact. But, but our show. Our show.

Larry Roberts [00:31:16]:

But you could say it's your show, and I wouldn't think, I wouldn't get offended if you said it was your show as well. So it's, it's, it's. We both know where we are, but I firmly believe you got to get out there and you got to drop some money on it too. And I think paid ads is, is really going to be your source of website revenue. But again, that doesn't take away from the fact that it needs to be structured properly. It needs to have that very engaging hero image. It needs to have that CTA at the top and everything that you laid out today.

Sara Lohse [00:31:40]:

So, but even if, like, you have the paid piece, if your SEO isn't good, even your paid ads aren't going to show up.

Larry Roberts [00:31:46]:

Up.

Roger Jorns [00:31:47]:

Well, yeah, to, yeah, to a certain extent. I mean, like, if you're, if you're pumping a lot of money into those paid ads, like, so you have like the cost per click. Right? So if you're like, yeah, you know, like, I'm trying to get, like, you know, high up on there, but if you're not. I. I think one of the things that people like to see is that if you're at. If you want. If you're like one of the top three ads, you know, because. Because I've seen it, like, sometimes where it's like one, you know, sponsored ad, and then you'll see like three or four or something like that.

Larry Roberts [00:32:15]:

But really just depends on the. On the. It depends on the. The type of business that it is, you know?

Roger Jorns [00:32:20]:

Yeah, yeah. And so if you look at a.

Larry Roberts [00:32:22]:

Lawyer, you're gonna have, like, freaking.

Roger Jorns [00:32:24]:

Yeah, yeah. Because then you're also gonna have. Yeah, then you're also gonna have Google local ads, which are even different.

Larry Roberts [00:32:29]:

Right, right.

Roger Jorns [00:32:30]:

So sometimes you'll see like the sponsored ad, and then right underneath that, you'll see like just the organic. And so I think. I think that if you're able to do that, I think that that builds a lot of trust. Because they're like, oh. Because I think people, you know, I think people know that, okay, this is a sponsored ad, like, they're paying for it. Right. They may not know all the intricacies of it, but they know like, okay, this is a sponsored ad versus this is like, okay, they're showing up again for the same, you know, query or whatever.

Sara Lohse [00:32:56]:

If I like the company, I'll click on the organic one beneath the paid one, but if I don't like the company, I'll click on the paid one so that they have to pay for it.

Larry Roberts [00:33:03]:

Bro, don't think for a second that with my pool business, I didn't click on every other pool company's ads.

Sara Lohse [00:33:08]:

Oh, I always click on competitor ads. I click on the politicians I don't like.

Larry Roberts [00:33:12]:

I cl.

Sara Lohse [00:33:12]:

Click on their ads.

Roger Jorns [00:33:13]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:33:14]:

I am more likely to click a company that I don't like that I do like just to make them pay. Of course I am.

Larry Roberts [00:33:21]:

You know what you got to keep in mind today too, though, is, is that the cost per click campaigns are much more expensive than they were back in 2005 when I started my gig. Because, I mean, I would get top ranking from my swimming pool company with, I don't know, ads were 5 to 10 cents a click for the top cat daddy words, you know, so. But today I've. I've looked and it. There's multiple dollars per click ads that are out there now, and it's. Yeah, again, depending on the industry, it can get pretty expensive. Pretty Quick.

Roger Jorns [00:33:51]:

Yeah, you can also do key phrases where it's, you know, more. It's like over three to five words. So you're going into, like, the seven, like, where it's an actual phrase, like, how do I clean my pool during the winter? Right. Versus pool cleaning winter or something like that, you know, and obviously, you know, you can. And I'm not super expert, but, like, you can show it for both. But, like, when you do, like, the longer phrases, you know, that. That also helps out as well.

Larry Roberts [00:34:13]:

So. So, Roger, I mean, this has been super, super insightful, and I think there's a lot of really beneficial information in this episode for folks that are really trying to dial in their websites. If somebody wanted to work with you or reach out to you, how would they do that?

Roger Jorns [00:34:26]:

Yeah, you can check out my website, reanimation design.com. i'm also on LinkedIn, and I am on Facebook and Instagram as well. But LinkedIn is really where I'm going to kind of of stay at, as well as my website as well.

Larry Roberts [00:34:39]:

Very cool. Very cool. So, Sara, got anything to wrap this thing up with?

Sara Lohse [00:34:44]:

Hold on. I'm gonna ask Jeeves.

Larry Roberts [00:34:46]:

Okay. Hey, you know what? I'm not gonna ask Jeeves, but I'm gonna ask you right now. If you found some value in this episode, do us a favor, hit that subscribe button so we can continue to bring you these amazing episodes each and every week right here on Brandon. And with that, we. I'm Larry Roberts.

Sara Lohse [00:35:02]:

I'm Sara Lohse, and we'll talk to you next week.