How to Level Up Your Brand with Next Level University’s Kevin and Alan

Larry Roberts [00:00:09]:

What is happening, everybody? I'm Larry Roberts.

Sara Lohse [00:00:11]:

And I'm Sara Lohse. And this is Branded, your comprehensive guide to creative branding.

Larry Roberts [00:00:16]:

And on this episode of the podcast, we are going to take things to the next level and we're going to do it. It's an interesting scenario because we actually have two guests today. And this is something that. I mean, I've been in the podcast space for literally a decade this year, and I don't believe I've ever had two guests on simultaneously, so this should be a lot of fun. But our guests that are joining us today are Kevin and Alan, and they're the founders of the next level university podcast. And I got to tell you, they went from zero just starting out, just like all of us do, to having a very, very successful business and a podcast that's in the top 100 rankings overall with well over a million listeners. And this is what's crazy to me, because so many times people will start a podcast, they'll get maybe. Maybe they hit 100 episodes, maybe they hit 200 episodes.

Larry Roberts [00:01:05]:

But these guys have over 1700 episodes in, and that is amazing in and of itself. So, Kevin Allen, welcome to Brandon.

Kevin Palmieri [00:01:14]:

Thank you for having us. We appreciate it. Excited to chat.

Alan Lazaros [00:01:18]:

I. This is awesome because we have only done one other interview, which we talked about in the pre call a little bit. We've done one other interview with four people before, so I'm very excited from a mastery perspective to see how this goes. If I interrupt anyone, I apologize.

Kevin Palmieri [00:01:32]:

It will happen. Yes.

Sara Lohse [00:01:34]:

It will be happened by all of us. And y'all are at 1700. We are really close behind. I want to say this is 64, so we're gaining on you.

Larry Roberts [00:01:44]:

We have 64. Is that where we're at? I don't even know, but anyways, I don't know.

Kevin Palmieri [00:01:50]:

It's good if you're losing count, you're doing.

Sara Lohse [00:01:53]:

It's.

Kevin Palmieri [00:01:53]:

You're doing something. I think it's 1775 as of today. But. But that's the interesting thing, is you guys are further than 90% of shows make it already, so you're already in the top 10% of shows. You just have to. The attrition rate is so. It's so out there.

Sara Lohse [00:02:08]:

It is crazy.

Larry Roberts [00:02:10]:

Yeah, it's insane. And even for me, man, there's been shows where I've started, and again, I've been doing this ten years, but there are shows. I mean, I had one called Larry after lockup, and when the show first kicked off, it was love after lockup.

Sara Lohse [00:02:22]:

Why don't I know about this?

Larry Roberts [00:02:24]:

Because there's only like two episodes. But I loved the show called Love after Lockup, which is this horrible reality show. And I had set out to do a review of every episode, but it came on Friday nights, and I think it came on at 09:00 p.m. so, of course, if you're going to do a show that's reviewing a tv show, you got to get in there quick to get the viewers because you got to be first to market with your review. Right? So I'd have to watch the show from nine to ten, then come in here and coordinate with my co host at the time. We'd have to do a podcast from, like, ten to eleven, then I'd have to produce it from eleven to twelve, then I'd have to publish it. And every Friday night, it looked like it was going to be a nightmare. So I think that show, although it was a blast, only lasted about two, maybe three episodes at the most.

Sara Lohse [00:03:06]:

I really thought it was going to be like a biopic of you after jail. I'm like, this even happened. I know nothing about you. Everything I know is a lie.

Larry Roberts [00:03:16]:

I was only in jail for three days, so there's not a lot of stories that happened in three days. Yeah, that was a rough weekend. So, anyways, guys, thank you again for joining us. Talk to us about next level university. Tell us what that's all about, man.

Kevin Palmieri [00:03:28]:

Go ahead, Alan. You're the CEO. Lead the charge.

Alan Lazaros [00:03:31]:

All right, so next level university is exactly what it sounds. Next level you is the pun pun intended. Because becoming the best version of yourself, the next level version of you, it's holistic self improvement in your pocket. So Kevin and I, we can share our stories briefly, but we both grew up without fathers, so my father passed away when I was two. His father left when he was born. I had a stepfather from age three to 14. He left my family at 14. And so we wanted to be the male role model in your pocket from anywhere on the planet, completely free, every single day.

Alan Lazaros [00:04:00]:

1% holistic self improvement every day. Imagine if you had a mentor or a coach in your pocket every day, helping you focus and be better, become a better version of you. So it's all about self awareness and that kind of thing. So Kevin and I, seven years ago, he started a podcast called the Hyper Conscious podcast. I had a YouTube channel, and my podcast was only on YouTube. He always calls me out for that.

Kevin Palmieri [00:04:21]:

He's not a podcast. No Rss feed. Thank you.

Larry Roberts [00:04:24]:

Oh, my God. I'm about to get in tons of.

Sara Lohse [00:04:26]:

Trouble, so don't get him started on this.

Alan Lazaros [00:04:30]:

So I had a podcast called Conversations Change lives. And then we had the worst podcast title ever. So he was my first guest, Kev, and I was his first guest. And then we just started doing them weekly, and we had the worst podcast name of all time. The hyper conscious podcast meets conversations change lives podcast.

Larry Roberts [00:04:48]:

Wow.

Alan Lazaros [00:04:49]:

Which was just terrible, right? So we were really good at branding. I feel. I feel like we were pretty strong branders. And then I think around episode 20, we decided to go all in on hyper conscious. And so hyper conscious, the tagline was, change the way you think, change the way you act, change the way you live. It was all about self awareness, and we went all in on that. And if you look up hyper conscious in the dictionary, it says to be acutely aware. And then eventually we realized that no one knows what the hell hyper conscious means.

Alan Lazaros [00:05:14]:

And so we decided to rebrand to next level university. And here we are, seven years later and still. Still out here doing it.

Sara Lohse [00:05:21]:

I think Larry might have you beat with worst podcast name ever.

Kevin Palmieri [00:05:24]:

What do you got, Larry?

Larry Roberts [00:05:26]:

When I first. Well, it was my second show. My second show was called Readily Random. That was the name of the podcast I wanted way back in the MySpace days. I had a blog under the same name. And this was probably around 1617 when I started this podcast, because my first show was a comedy podcast that was very blue. And I was still in corporate at the time, and I was forced to kill that show or go ahead and pack my bags. So I killed that show, and I thought, well, I still want a podcast, but I got to do something clean.

Larry Roberts [00:05:59]:

And I want to be Joe Rogan. I want to talk to everybody. I want to cover everything. And I thought readily random would be an amazing name, and it did not work out that well.

Kevin Palmieri [00:06:08]:

It's good alliteration, though. I love. I love alliteration in the title. I think that's better than ours, for sure.

Alan Lazaros [00:06:16]:

That is the first time I've heard back in the MySpace days in, like, a decade, so.

Larry Roberts [00:06:21]:

Well, I'm. I'm over 50, so I can say it, you know?

Alan Lazaros [00:06:23]:

Cool.

Sara Lohse [00:06:24]:

Back in the real question, would I be in your, like, top eight if we still had MySpace? No.

Alan Lazaros [00:06:31]:

Oh, man, she's asking you.

Larry Roberts [00:06:32]:

I think that got awkwardly quiet. Oh, you talking to me?

Kevin Palmieri [00:06:35]:

Yeah, she asked you, Larry, we didn't even know Sara.

Larry Roberts [00:06:38]:

Oh, of course you would. Yes.

Alan Lazaros [00:06:42]:

Yeah, now she knows you're full of it, man.

Larry Roberts [00:06:44]:

No doubt, no doubt.

Alan Lazaros [00:06:45]:

Yeah, of course, no doubt. Yeah, of course.

Sara Lohse [00:06:47]:

The meanest thing you can do is not play a top eight.

Larry Roberts [00:06:50]:

Moving on.

Alan Lazaros [00:06:53]:

I forgot there was a top eight, honestly. That's.

Larry Roberts [00:06:55]:

I did, too.

Alan Lazaros [00:06:56]:

Yeah, it's like, am I in your aim bio? Am I in there?

Larry Roberts [00:06:59]:

Oh, my gosh. I. That's hilarious. I think when Facebook kicked off, though, didn't you have, like, your featured friends or something as well? Like a little MySpace knockoff?

Alan Lazaros [00:07:07]:

Or.

Larry Roberts [00:07:07]:

Or am I thinking, still sticking my space?

Alan Lazaros [00:07:09]:

Oh, you're absolutely right.

Sara Lohse [00:07:10]:

Back when it was photos.

Alan Lazaros [00:07:13]:

So Kev. And I'm not trying to dig on Kev here. Kevin purposely didn't go to college, so he didn't get on Facebook. Cause in the beginning of Facebook, you needed a college email, right? So he doesn't even. He wouldn't even remember that.

Kevin Palmieri [00:07:24]:

And I never had my space either. Everybody was like, make a MySpace. I'm not going to because you're asking me to. I'm just not gonna do it. That's one of the reasons I wanted to be a podcast, because nobody else I knew was doing it. It's like, I want to do stuff that's outside of the box that's different because I already feel different. So I might as well just go all in on this difference that I feel.

Alan Lazaros [00:07:42]:

Now everybody's a podcaster.

Kevin Palmieri [00:07:43]:

Yeah. Now everybody's a podcast.

Alan Lazaros [00:07:44]:

Yeah.

Larry Roberts [00:07:44]:

And if you don't have a podcast, you're like, why not? Why don't you have a podcast? You need to start a podcast today. So going down podcast memory Lane is always a ton of fun. But help us understand how next level university helps the average individual. So if somebody is an entrepreneur and they're still working on developing their personal brand, they're still trying to get that attention. How can they leverage or what can they do with their personal brand to help them elevate to that next level?

Kevin Palmieri [00:08:13]:

So here's a weird thing. Our podcast has nothing to do with branding. Our podcast is all about helping people level up their life, their love, their health, and their wealth. So that really is our jam, in a nutshell, is when you listen to the episode, we're going to help you raise your awareness. And we usually start at the identity level of, if you're listening to the show, you're probably an emotionally driven human who wants more fulfillment out of life. Let's start there. Let's talk about the identity level. And then Alan and I just have really deep conversations about habits, about consistency, about relationships, about finances.

Kevin Palmieri [00:08:45]:

So, yeah, we're definitely not the place for branding, but we have really, really been able to help our audience get to the next level of their lives through the podcast and then coaching and all that other stuff.

Alan Lazaros [00:08:56]:

So it started off as next level university, and that's about really self improvement, holistic, like you mentioned, success and fulfillment. And then he has a podcast called podcast Growth University, and then I'm starting another one called business growth university. So we have something called listeners, longers, and business owners. So we have a business model. We have 21 departments. We actually just put a bunch on coast mode because we're spread way too thin. But we've got a book club and all this different stuff. But really what it comes down to is at the top of the business model, top of the funnel, for lack of better phrasing, is let's inspire and motivate people.

Alan Lazaros [00:09:29]:

And then when you get towards the middle, it's more education, and then at the bottom, it's all accountability and taking action. So listeners are at the top. So listeners are people who want to learn from us. Longers are people who want to start their own podcasts. We produce, what, 40, 40 or so other shows, 45 other shows, okay. Including a couple of my own and his as well. So then listeners, longers. So listeners want to learn from us.

Alan Lazaros [00:09:52]:

Longers want to build their own communities, start their own podcasts, build their own private Facebook groups around their passion. And then business owners are people who have skin in the game that really need to become profitable in order to keep it going. And so we both coach listeners, and then he coaches podcasters, and then I coach business owners. And so it's kind of that triad, so to speak. And when it comes to the branding piece, we sucked at branding for, like, a really long time, to be completely honest with you. We didn't know what the heck we were doing. Now, I've kind of understood that you really, Tesla shouldn't sell Red Bull energy drinks, and, like, Red Bull shouldn't sell cars. We were kind of everything for everyone.

Alan Lazaros [00:10:29]:

Sort of like you in the beginning with readily random.

Larry Roberts [00:10:32]:

There you go.

Alan Lazaros [00:10:33]:

Readily random. Hey, I remembered the name. That's good branding, but it's catchy, brother.

Larry Roberts [00:10:37]:

I'll tell you, we've started.

Alan Lazaros [00:10:38]:

We've started to brand ourselves much better. Even last night, Emilia said, your new podcast, business growth university, are you sure? University. And I said, we gotta stay on brand. We gotta stay on brand. And yeah, I am sure about business growth university. I think that'd be good.

Sara Lohse [00:10:52]:

With business growth university, what are a few of the first tips that you give people, like, just starting out the gate, they just launched their brand. What do they do?

Alan Lazaros [00:11:01]:

Okay, so I have a framework that I use. So the thing to understand about this is I actually think business, the principles in business are the same, but the 21st century has absolutely changed the game. There's 5.44 billion people on the Internet and all of those are your potential market. And so the five things that I take my clients through, I have 24 people on my roster. The youngest is 16, the oldest is 63. Anywhere from, hey, I want to start a YouTube channel all the way to. I've been in business for a decade and I'm already a millionaire and I want to scale it. And so the framework that I take everyone through is these five.

Alan Lazaros [00:11:38]:

Okay, so branding is number one, marketing is number two, sales is number three. Number four is delivery, and then number five is community. Those are the five things that we rate our business on. And this is fairly new, but branding, I'll just go through each briefly. So branding is what people say about you and think about you when you're not there. Marketing is the message that you have, who you're talking to, who's your target market, and then the channels in which you reach them. So for us, we use WhatsApp. We have WhatsApp, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn.

Alan Lazaros [00:12:09]:

Those are like our main channels in the podcast. Right? And then you've got sales. Sales is one on one conversations with warm leads. And then the last one is client or second to last one is client delivery. I think that most companies are either good at branding, marketing and sales, or client delivery. Very few are good at both because you're either focused more on looking good or getting better. And that tends to be diametric opposites. Some companies are good at both.

Alan Lazaros [00:12:37]:

Right. If you're good at delivery, you'll get lots of referrals and you'll grow your business organically. If you're good at branding and marketing, it's a numbers game and you'll win by that. Okay, so these people reach the masses but don't make a ton of money. These people make a lot of money but don't reach the masses, that kind of thing. And then obviously some people do both, which is what we're trying to do. And then the last one is community. Do you have a real community of real people in the real world that are engaged around a core value? And I think community is built on a passion.

Alan Lazaros [00:13:04]:

So the passion that our core community is built around, we have something called next level nation. It's a private Facebook group. It's just, it's almost like we're trying to make it cool and okay, and safe to be into self improvement because a lot of these people, they're trying to be into personal growth and personal development, but they're their family. It's not safe to post about it on Facebook. Oh, now you're a guru. That kind of thing. So we're super passionate about self improvement, and we've created a community. It's not that big.

Alan Lazaros [00:13:31]:

It's less than a thousand people, but it's very engaged. They're all in there. And it's a place I've always wanted where we. It's okay to be struggling, it's okay to be successful, it's okay to be awesome. It's okay not to be. And it's just a self awareness, self improvement space. And so those are the five that I bethe benchmark my clients against in my head. And then I kind of coach from there.

Sara Lohse [00:13:51]:

That's really interesting. I want to kind of touch on something that you said, because I just had a call a couple weeks ago with a graduate student that I kind of mentor, and she said, how do you get, like, how do you get yourself to start posting on social and putting out thought leadership content when you know all of your friends are judging you?

Alan Lazaros [00:14:15]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:14:16]:

And I was just confused. I'm like, why? How do you know that? And why are they, your friends, even reach out to her? Like, like making fun of her for what she's posted?

Alan Lazaros [00:14:26]:

Of course.

Sara Lohse [00:14:26]:

People that have been friends with her her whole life.

Alan Lazaros [00:14:29]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:14:29]:

I've never understood that.

Alan Lazaros [00:14:31]:

Well, you either have really good friends or you're delusional.

Larry Roberts [00:14:40]:

And I think, too, it just goes back to Gary V and what Gary says all the time. Stop giving an f. What people think about you. You. You just have to come to that realization. And, I mean, we've talked about this before, Sara. I got an official hater the other day, and it was amazing. Somebody posted on, what's that right wing? Was it rumble or something or.

Larry Roberts [00:15:00]:

It was whatever. I don't know. Whatever. The Reddit. No, it's like, is it rumble? It's like the YouTube for right wing. I don't know. Whatever.

Alan Lazaros [00:15:08]:

He's not a real hater. You don't know where he is?

Larry Roberts [00:15:10]:

Well, somebody told me about it because I don't ever go over here to this thing, whatever it is. And I went over to Larry Roberts is a fraud. Discuss.

Sara Lohse [00:15:18]:

And I was like, nobody discussed.

Larry Roberts [00:15:20]:

Nobody discussed. But at the same time, it was kick ass to have somebody calling me a fraud. Cause I was like, yes, I've made it.

Kevin Palmieri [00:15:27]:

But, Larry, you very clearly have a lot of belief in yourself. I think, like, to your point, Sara, if somebody is emotionally driven, getting messages from your friends that are crapping on you will wreck your entire day. So it really, Larry, I used to hear advice, like, from Gary Vee, just don't give an f. Like, thanks, I appreciate that. That's really what I'm trying to get to. That's very, yeah, that's very good bumper sticker advice. Alan used to say to me, Kev, just believe in yourself more. Thanks, man.

Kevin Palmieri [00:15:58]:

I appreciate that so much. Tell me how to do it. So to your point, Sara, people, if you're starting a brand, if you're getting into the space, thought leadership stuff, people like you for the identity that you have in their minds. When you start rocking the boat, it's going to highlight a lot of the stuff that they're already thinking about themselves. And here's the thing. Eventually, a lot of the people that crapped on you will come back out and say, you know what? You're doing some really cool stuff. And maybe I'm sorry I didn't believe in you in the beginning. We've seen some of that me more than Alan, because Alan has more haters than I do.

Kevin Palmieri [00:16:36]:

But that is definitely one of the challenging things is now it's really easy to start a brand or a business, and a lot of emotionally driven people are doing it and the backlash can be really hard.

Larry Roberts [00:16:47]:

You know, it's funny cause just the other day, and while I do like to think that I have some confidence in myself, I was, I was trying to up my social media game the other day. Cause I don't post nearly as much as I should and I know this, and we tell our clients to do it, then I don't do it. And I feel like a fraud because I'm telling my clients to do one thing and then I'm doing something else. Right? Yeah, discuss. So I jumped on Chad GPT the other day, came up with a nice content calendar, came up with like 25 quotes for the month. And then I exported that, threw it into canva, did a little batch, creative quote cards. So I'm gonna start posting these quote cards at least once a day and really start really establishing, blah, blah, blah. I made all of the content I spent the time creating.

Larry Roberts [00:17:28]:

But then when it came to pulling the trigger to start publishing those on a consistent basis, I went, bro, what are you doing? Everybody look at this and think you're an idiot. This was literally, what was the last week, Sara? Yeah, I think it was last week that I did this. So I still struggle with the same thing myself. And, you know, I'm again, been in the game for ten years, but I still have that self. I won't call it doubt, but I have those same fears. Imposter syndrome. Yeah, we'll call it that. That's fine.

Larry Roberts [00:17:58]:

So tell us this, Kevin, in how did you reconcile of not letting people influence you or not giving an f of how people felt about you publishing content on a regular basis? How did you cross that threshold? I know a lot of people still struggle with it.

Kevin Palmieri [00:18:17]:

I didn't, Larry. I'm still there. I'm still. I have at this point, I've been on 800 5851 other podcasts.

Larry Roberts [00:18:25]:

Sure.

Kevin Palmieri [00:18:26]:

And I still have minutes and moments and seconds before I get on the show. And I'm live there where I say, there must be another Kevin Palmieri. I cannot be the one that's supposed to be on this show.

Larry Roberts [00:18:35]:

Show.

Kevin Palmieri [00:18:36]:

I still don't like negative comments. I still don't like negative reviews. It gets to me. It 1000% gets to me. The thing that's always helped me is, and I said this in the beginning, and Alan can attest to this, I know I'm going to get punches on one cheek, but my deep belief is that I will get more kisses on the other. I will be able to help more people than the people that don't like me. That's part one. And the other part of it is, look, if you spend enough time around us in what we do, I will flip your opinion of us.

Kevin Palmieri [00:19:07]:

Just give me. You just gotta give me time. You gotta give me time. And I know we can do that as a business. I know we can do that as a brand. I know that we can do it as the character driven men that we are. But I still have those moments. Alan will tell you, when we get a negative review, it rocks me.

Kevin Palmieri [00:19:22]:

I can't stand it. I just know that what am I gonna do? Am I just not gonna do the thing that I love? I'm not gonna do the thing that fulfills me. I'm not gonna do the thing that I'm so passionate about. I can't allow somebody else's negative circumstances of life that they're gonna put on me to stop me from creating positive circumstances for me and my family and Alan and the business. So that's really the motivation for me.

Sara Lohse [00:19:47]:

Larry was here for this, but the first early review I got from my book was, like, 99% positive, but had one line that said, like, not every page offered new insights. I started crying and then I rewrote the book.

Larry Roberts [00:20:04]:

Literally the whole freaking book. I mean, she gives some chunks here and there, but that one line, because.

Sara Lohse [00:20:11]:

Not every single page had something new. But I think one of the things also that me and Larry do differently, which I think is why he's more hesitant to post, is everything. Larry, for you, is under your name versus I do everything under my brand name. So I'm quicker to post things to my, like, favorite daughter media pages than my personal pages. But I noticed, too, that the people that are personally in my life, like my good friends that really support me, even on my brand page, are the first ones to like it, the first to react to it, comment on it. So I guess just like, by separating it out and letting people decide, like, I want to support her, I don't have to deal with the people who don't.

Larry Roberts [00:20:56]:

Yeah, I think that's interesting because I am a personal brand. I am the brand. And so I do take everything to heart, everything a little more personal than I should. If there's some sort of comment in regards to content or quality of delivery or what. Because it's me. I mean, it's a hundred. The red hat is me. I mean, I got red hat stuff everywhere in the background.

Larry Roberts [00:21:16]:

You can see here. So the red hat is. Is everything. And a dinosaur skull. It is a dinosaur skull.

Sara Lohse [00:21:22]:

Wearing a red hat.

Larry Roberts [00:21:23]:

Wearing a red hat. Yes. I love Jurassic Park. I don't know what to tell you.

Alan Lazaros [00:21:28]:

Same, same. Holy. Huge fan. Yeah, we can.

Kevin Palmieri [00:21:33]:

Yeah. Don't get Alan started on movies. He'll take you through the entire character journey of Titanic. It's gonna be a whole thing.

Larry Roberts [00:21:39]:

I love Titanic, too, man. It's a great one.

Sara Lohse [00:21:41]:

Have you been to the museum in Ireland?

Alan Lazaros [00:21:43]:

Not yet.

Sara Lohse [00:21:44]:

Not yet.

Alan Lazaros [00:21:46]:

My girlfriend told me about it. Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:21:47]:

In Cobb county. It's the last port that it left before it went to the US and then died.

Kevin Palmieri [00:21:53]:

My goodness.

Larry Roberts [00:21:53]:

Oh, and it died. Well, that was tragic. The way you said that was just so impactful. It was the last point that died. So anyway.

Alan Lazaros [00:22:02]:

Real quick, just the woman that you mentor that said, how do you post when you know your friends are going to judge you? You post with courage. You face the fact that one your friends are going to judge you. Everyone is going to judge you. I know. We want to believe we live in a judgment free world. That's not true. It's not accurate. What is accurate is some people, everyone will judge it.

Alan Lazaros [00:22:25]:

Even Titanic. You just judged it. I love Titanic. It's a great movie, right?

Larry Roberts [00:22:29]:

Yeah.

Alan Lazaros [00:22:30]:

Everyone is judging everyone all the time. And quite frankly, we can't make decisions without judgment. You know, if you're in a dark alley and someone's running at you, you gotta make a judgment call. Okay, so the point is, is that everyone will judge every post you do. And if you face that in advance and realize that you're just afraid, then you insert courage and say, okay, it's better than not putting myself out there ever. It's better than staying small forever. It's better than staying stuck forever. You have to be more afraid of living with what if for the rest of your life than you are of posting, and you gotta show up and face that fear every single day.

Alan Lazaros [00:23:08]:

But I think a lot of people want to believe it's not fear when deep down it really is.

Larry Roberts [00:23:11]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:23:13]:

And I feel like a big, like, national brand, like Nike. They'll post an ad, and it'll have a million reactions, comment shares. But your friend posts something about their small business, and it's crickets. Why are we so quick to support these companies that we have no connection to, that don't need our money? They're doing great, but we ignore our friends businesses?

Alan Lazaros [00:23:36]:

That is because of a psychological tendency that Kevin brought up to me.

Kevin Palmieri [00:23:40]:

I stole it. I had it. I had it queued up in.

Alan Lazaros [00:23:46]:

There's something called burging that Kevin brought up to me because I've studied all the cognitive biases and same. Awesome. Okay, so one of the biases that, for some reason there's very little literature on is burging, basking in reflected glory. It's cool to like Nike. It's not cool to associate with a friend who's not successful. That's why when Kev said, eventually, people will come around and say, I should have believed in you, here's the problem. I don't need you to believe in me now. I needed you to believe in me back then when it was crickets.

Alan Lazaros [00:24:15]:

That's the paradox. You got to get through the crickets. And that is just awful. It's really. There's no sugar coating it. It's just awful.

Larry Roberts [00:24:21]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:24:23]:

Kevin?

Kevin Palmieri [00:24:24]:

Yeah.

Sara Lohse [00:24:26]:

Did you want to jump in? He stole your words.

Kevin Palmieri [00:24:28]:

I feel like he explained it really, really well. It's. It's kind of the. The fair weather fair. The fair weather fan syndrome. When your team is doing terrible, you say, I never. I don't even like sports. What are you talking about? That's not my favorite team.

Kevin Palmieri [00:24:41]:

But when your team is crushing it, you have the hat and you have the shirt and you have the mug. That really is. Yeah. That's what burging is. It's really. This brand is crushing it. This team is crushing it. This musician is crushing it.

Kevin Palmieri [00:24:55]:

Nobody talks about the musician when nobody knows who they are, but when they make it, they say, I used to. I actually used to listen to McLemore back before they made it because it increases your ever.

Larry Roberts [00:25:06]:

I did.

Kevin Palmieri [00:25:07]:

I straight up. It was a huge fan. I was a huge fan.

Alan Lazaros [00:25:10]:

Yeah, yeah, we bet.

Kevin Palmieri [00:25:12]:

Gotta own it.

Alan Lazaros [00:25:13]:

He is honest.

Kevin Palmieri [00:25:15]:

But that's. That's what happened. It increases your standing, your social standing amongst the people around you. And that's. So many people are doing that. So many humans are significance driven. If me liking your stuff does not increase my social. Social positioning and it decreases it.

Kevin Palmieri [00:25:31]:

Gotta have a lot of confidence to be able to do that.

Alan Lazaros [00:25:33]:

And that's why people reach out later and say, I always knew you'd make it. They're trying to get back in. Yeah.

Larry Roberts [00:25:37]:

Yeah.

Alan Lazaros [00:25:38]:

But I ain't falling for it.

Larry Roberts [00:25:39]:

No, you weren't here in the beginning. You're not here now.

Sara Lohse [00:25:42]:

That's now stuck in my head.

Alan Lazaros [00:25:44]:

What would you say?

Sara Lohse [00:25:45]:

It's like, that's like a Kanye verse that's not gonna be stuck in my head forever. It's like I was there from the start. No, you wasn't.

Alan Lazaros [00:25:51]:

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is a song. I had someone, I kid you not, reach out, say, hey, don't take this too seriously, but I really. It was a backdoor compliment, for sure. Yeah. Here, don't. Don't look too far into this. Something like that.

Alan Lazaros [00:26:06]:

I read it to Kev. Don't look too far into this, but I really was a little bit of a dick to you in the beginning. I'm sorry. And don't think too much about this, but it was just one of those, hey, you made it. Congratulations. And I really should have believed in you. Well, thank you for motivating me, I guess. Right.

Larry Roberts [00:26:23]:

So anyways, we can sit here and have these stories all day. I guarantee it, because we've all lived in and experienced it. What are some of the first steps that a new entrepreneur that is building their brand? And, Kevin, going back to what you said as we first started the conversation, you know, you don't do a whole lot about branding, but a lot of the values and the concepts and principles that you dropped on us at the first of the episode, all of those are 100% applicable to building a brand and building a personal brand. What are some of the first steps that someone could take that's struggling to build their brand and leverage some of the tactics that you use in personal development and spiritual development. What could they do right out of the gate to help establish themselves in that brand arena?

Kevin Palmieri [00:27:07]:

Yeah, Alan kind of spoke to this. The thing that really, really helped us in the beginning that is, has really become a through line in what we do is going out and finding the people who resonate with what you do. I think a lot of us are misguided and we're told, start a brand, start a business, and that will create demand. People will just flock to you and they'll find you. We are hunters. We go out and find people and then we bring them back to the brand. So for us, the thing that has set us apart, I think, from other podcasts and other small businesses, is we are extremely community driven. We used to do so many unscalable things.

Kevin Palmieri [00:27:46]:

I would give my phone number out to listeners. I'd hop on FaceTimes with listeners. And that helped me understand how do they see our brand? When I jump on the phone with you and I start asking questions about what you're going through, the answers you give me really give me an idea of what you think our brand is, then when I learn about the target audience and the end user, then I can put that into the brand even more and even more and even more so. The thing that I've noticed is most people really, really struggle with building demand, and that's why they end up dying. Podcasts, businesses, whatever. I am a firm believer that you have to go out and hunt, and when you go find these people, it really helps you lock in. When they hear the podcast or when they buy the product, or they see the social media posts, this is what they think. Okay, let me take that and let me put that back into the machine, into the content machine, the marketing machine, whatever, the messaging machine, and then see how we can kind of shift that.

Kevin Palmieri [00:28:40]:

So that's always my go to answer, because I think it's easy enough for people to do in the beginning.

Alan Lazaros [00:28:46]:

We have found it really difficult over the years to we grow and we evolve and we change, but there's certain things about us that never changed. And I think that's what you build your brand on. We're reading a book in book club right now called same as ever. It's over there by Morgan Housel. And he the whole book is based on a lot of things change in technology. A lot of things change through history, but some things never change. That's what I would ask anyone who's starting a brand. What about you? Never changed.

Alan Lazaros [00:29:11]:

You gotta build your brand around your obsessions. If you're obsessed with film, and you always have been and always will be, you can build a brand on that, because there's other film lovers who are going to love your stuff. Relationships are built on a mutual core value. A brand is a relationship. So Nike, you mentioned that earlier. They honor athletics and great athletes. So if I consider myself an athlete, I identify as an athlete, and I do, regardless of whether or not anyone sees me that way. I buy, I bought Nikes, new gym shoes, Nikes.

Alan Lazaros [00:29:45]:

I'm an athlete, I identify as an athlete. They honor great athletes. So I just unconsciously link myself with them. So I always use weddings as an analogy because I had a struggle with drinking in the past, and weddings were my kryptonite. I would try to quit drinking, and I would keep falling off at these weddings. And I figured out why you go to a wedding, and the only thing any of us have in common is we all knew that couple at some point, we don't have any core values in common. What am I going to talk about personal development in the middle of this wedding? It's open bar. I have social anxiety.

Alan Lazaros [00:30:15]:

So I'm just gonna. We'll do one, we'll do one. One turns into two, two turn to four, right? Dancing. But here's the thing. The only thing we have in common is that we all knew this couple at some point. What if I haven't talked to this couple in seven years? That's why everyone's anxious at weddings. You don't know any. There's nothing to talk about.

Alan Lazaros [00:30:32]:

You don't know who knows what and all that kind of stuff. And so if you're a weirdo like me, and you are very niche in the things that you adore, like reading Einstein on a Thursday night, as a weirdo, you need to find those things and build your brand on it. And especially in today's world, 5.44 billion people online, that's increasing now that skylink is out there. So that's gonna be higher and higher and higher. There's other people that are obsessed with what you're obsessed with. And if you can build a brand around your obsessions, not only can you be consistent for the long term and sustain it, because you're obsessed with it, and you always have been and always will be. Which, by the way, I think business success is just staying power. Who can survive the longest? Same with podcasting.

Alan Lazaros [00:31:09]:

Joe Rogan just survived the longest, right? And he already started with after fear factor was already semi famous and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, Kevin and I could never have survived 1700 episodes talking about something we don't care about, nor would that ever work. So he talked about Huntingdez. That's one piece of it. The other piece is farming, which is what do you adore that you're always going to adore. And then you will naturally attract people who also adore that.

Sara Lohse [00:31:35]:

Like you talked about Nike and how they celebrate athletes. They have since updated to. They have an asterisk next to athlete and it says any, like, person with a body. So it kind of makes me wonder, like, how niche do you think people should go?

Alan Lazaros [00:31:52]:

So they obviously have reached a point where they've decided to either sell out. No, I don't get in trouble. I would say that you have to niche pretty heavily. One of the things that we struggled with, to be honest, is we didn't niche enough. Health, wealth, life and love. Really.

Kevin Palmieri [00:32:11]:

Yeah.

Alan Lazaros [00:32:12]:

Right. Yeah. That's. That's made it challenging for us. That's why we have the other podcasts to niche down further. So we have a wider net up here. And then, you know, Marlin and Tuna or whatever. Whatever analogy.

Alan Lazaros [00:32:21]:

I'm not a fisherman, but that Nike, I would say they probably have lost sight of what, what they started with. And a lot of big companies do that. I mean, Ben and Jerry's, for example, they used to be one of my customers at Cognex. And everyone thinks that's a little mom and pop shop in Vermont. That, and I've been to the factory and all that. But it's owned by a bigger company. So at the end of the day, the reason they keep it, Ben and Jerry, is, is because they want people to still have the nice hometown Walmart. Walmart hometown Vermont feel to it, even though it's owned by a company that's a conglomerate.

Alan Lazaros [00:32:54]:

Right. So I think Nike's gotten so big that they probably had to do that, or they felt they had to do that because they already captured all the athletes. But I think they're trying to take.

Larry Roberts [00:33:03]:

It into a lifestyle brand more so than an athletic brand.

Alan Lazaros [00:33:06]:

Right, right. Which I think is a mistake. But again, what do I know? Right?

Larry Roberts [00:33:10]:

Yeah. You know, and I think a lot of us make that mistake, especially when we're first starting out. I mean, look at readily random, for instance, because I did not want to niche down. I wanted to talk to anybody and everybody. And I did. You know, I talked to hall of Fame football players. I talked to the number one origami artist in the world. American origami artist in the world.

Larry Roberts [00:33:29]:

And I love origami. So if you read Einstein, I'm folding paper, so you know it works. But I loved that conversation. Not so many people loved it as well. But my point there is that we do want. We tend to, when we're right out of the gate, we want to catch as many fish as possible. So we throw that big seine or that big net out there and try to reel in everything we can. But there's a.

Larry Roberts [00:33:54]:

There's a. We end up throwing so much of it back because there's no value in catching all of those fish. We don't get the fish that we're after. And it's. It's so difficult starting out to really refine that message and refine that niche that a lot of us find ourselves in the same position. And I've told people that are starting podcasts, you know, they go, I want to be the next Joe Rogan. Well, I'm sorry, that's never going to happen. And, bro, are you drinking Mountain Dew or pickle juice? What is that?

Kevin Palmieri [00:34:19]:

I get three things. Mountain Dew, pickle juice, or urine. That's.

Larry Roberts [00:34:22]:

I wouldn't go in there because if your urine looks like that, you got problems.

Alan Lazaros [00:34:26]:

Maybe.

Kevin Palmieri [00:34:26]:

Maybe I'm just. I'm radioactive. It's just electrolytes.

Larry Roberts [00:34:29]:

Okay, all right.

Kevin Palmieri [00:34:30]:

I'm not. I'm nothing. I'm not that interesting. You know what I mean?

Alan Lazaros [00:34:34]:

He's funny. I like this, by the way, real quick, I'm sorry to interrupt you guys.

Larry Roberts [00:34:39]:

No, you're good.

Alan Lazaros [00:34:39]:

All I could picture with that, with you, with readily random, all I could picture is Forrest Gump when they do the shrimp and boat and he just gets, like, the toilet seat. It's like, you got five. That's all I could picture with readily random. Three episodes. I caught five and a toilet seat.

Larry Roberts [00:34:59]:

But, yeah, that's the thing is, you know, so many people want to be the next Joe Rogan, and that was my concept, too. But you can't do that. And I tell new podcasters, you really kind of have to earn the opportunity to go that broad at the very beginning. You have to niche down. You have to focus on a particular audience, and you have to really drill into that audience and gain their trust and gain their confidence over time. And then as you build that brand and as you evolve, I think you can widen that niche more and more over time. But you have to earn that right by putting in the reps and gaining that reputation. And gaining the trust of that initial niche.

Alan Lazaros [00:35:38]:

So. And then when you do do that and you're more successful, then the burging starts happening, which is the basking reflected glory. And the opposite of that is corfing, cutting off from reflective failure. So when you start to fail, people don't want to associate with you. When they. When you start to succeed. People do if they're status driven. But anyways, so when you do niche down and get success, now you can widen your net because more people are want to be on moving train, if that makes sense.

Larry Roberts [00:36:06]:

Yeah.

Alan Lazaros [00:36:06]:

The only problem with that is that's the opposite of personal growth. Because personal growth, when you're young, you try a bunch of stuff and then you hone down over time. So see how it's opposite. So that provides a huge problem. So what I try to tell people is, listen, when I was a little kid, I would catch a minnow in a minnow trap, and then I would catch a perch with the minnow, and then I'd catch a bass with the perch, and then I'd put the bass on for a snapping turtle. I'm kidding. The last part's a joke. But.

Alan Lazaros [00:36:28]:

But the point is, is that that's the way we approached it. We coached for free at first.

Larry Roberts [00:36:33]:

Yeah.

Alan Lazaros [00:36:34]:

So we coached people. When you're not Joe Rogan, you can't coach for $10,000 an hour. Nor should you, by the way, despite what that course says. So we started small, and we built. And then the analogy of don't forget about the minnows. The minnows are what got you here. Right. So we have a community of people that have been here from the beginning.

Alan Lazaros [00:36:55]:

Some people have gone, some people have left. But I. And, yeah, now we're catching tuna, too. We have big, high ticket clients, but we haven't forgotten that the only reason we got tuna is because we were catching minnows back then. Right. And so you kind of have to do it that way, I think. I think it's more practical to. Yes.

Alan Lazaros [00:37:12]:

Hone down on your core passions and your core values and build your business on that. What about you? Never changed. What are you obsessed with? Definitely start there. If you're obsessed with everything, you're in trouble. It's a different conversation. Readily random. Right. Origami on a Tuesday.

Alan Lazaros [00:37:25]:

Okay, so find what that is and then cast a net in those things. I say narrow it to three. So I was on with a client yesterday. He was doing a personal branding. He's trying to post on Instagram. He's scared like the person you're mentoring to post. I said, first of all, disconnect your Facebook from your Instagram, man, because all your aunts and uncles are on Facebook. Instagram's a safer space.

Alan Lazaros [00:37:45]:

Right? Start there. Let's just start there. Most lack of action comes from lack of certainty, which comes from lack of clarity. So let's start there. Okay. What are you gonna post about? He said, there's three. I said, what are you obsessed with? And he said, sports. I said, okay, what sports? He said, basketball.

Alan Lazaros [00:38:01]:

Hockey. I forget the third one, to be honest. Cricket. Yeah. I seriously doubt it was squash. I think it was squash. No, no. Basketball and hockey.

Alan Lazaros [00:38:11]:

Okay. And then he's also obsessed with fitness, and he's obsessed with wealth, okay? Wealth creation. And that's what he does. Okay? So post about things like that. When you go for a hike in the woods. Post about your hike in the woods to get extra calories burned. We have a little community ten pound and ten week challenge we're doing right now. Kevin and I are very hungry, and we have a community of, what, 20 people that are doing fitness every single day? The only point of that group is to just keep each other motivated in fitness, and that's one little sub facet of our bigger brand.

Alan Lazaros [00:38:44]:

And so my branding things me personally. And then, Kev, I think you should probably give yours fitness. I'm obsessed with fitness. I'm obsessed with self improvement, and I'm obsessed with business. Those are my three. So everything I post about will be something around those three. And Kev has his own. And that's why we've kind of had to branch out with three different podcasts.

Alan Lazaros [00:39:02]:

And then the main business is next level. You.

Kevin Palmieri [00:39:05]:

I'm the ultimate cat, dad. That's all you need to know.

Larry Roberts [00:39:08]:

Dude. Me too. Look. Look at my hand.

Kevin Palmieri [00:39:10]:

Look at my.

Alan Lazaros [00:39:11]:

That's.

Kevin Palmieri [00:39:11]:

Now, Larry, that's either really good or really bad. That's not unnecessarily, you know, reflective of your cat parenting.

Larry Roberts [00:39:18]:

No, I adopted a cat just about a month ago. I met her in the backyard, and when our eyes locked, little hearts popped up everywhere. And now she became my cat. And she loves to play because she's semi wild and she's very aggressive. But I enjoy it, too. But, yeah, so it's insane. I'm afraid to shake hands with people at networking events. They go, bro, what's wrong with you? Understandable.

Larry Roberts [00:39:41]:

I hate my brand. No, it's my cat. It's my cat.

Kevin Palmieri [00:39:43]:

So can I just speak to. So one of the things that I tell clients all the time is we have to create opportunities for your ideal audience to self identify, and they cannot self identify with something that they don't understand. So what are the problems that the brand solves? I always, when I'm working with a client, I say, what are the top 25 to 50 problems your audience has, and what are the top 25 to 50 problems that those problems create? Let's focus on solving those problems, whether it's products, services, content, episodes, whatever. That's one good way to start attracting the audience. If, if you're a stay at home mom and you want a demographic and a community of stay at home moms, you know what the top 25 to 50 problems you've dealt with are? And you know what the top 25 to 50 problems that those problems created? Start talking about that, because you're talking directly to your target audience, and they're going to self identify as, oh, my goodness, I haven't found content like this, and it sounds like they're talking directly to me. It's because they, they kind of are, in a way.

Larry Roberts [00:40:46]:

Sure. Guys, we could sit here and have this conversation for the remainder of the day, I have no doubt, because it's. It's a. It's been a fun conversation, very insightful conversation, and I love the contrast. I'm really thankful that both of you came on at the same time, because the contrast between the two of you kind of reminds me of the contrast between Sara and I, because, you know, Sara's hardcore college educated. She's smart as a whip and puts me in my place every opportunity she gets. I mean, I graduated high school, but that's. I think I've got.

Larry Roberts [00:41:11]:

What do I have, three college credit hours? I think three maybe. So something like that. So I love how we can relate to the message that you're sharing and the way that you're sharing it, because the contrast is very relatable on our end. So real quick, before we wrap it up, tell people where they can find you. Find out more about information about next level university. Find your podcasts. If you got a book, tell us about your book, all that fun stuff, and we'll wrap it up.

Kevin Palmieri [00:41:34]:

I always say, go check out NLU or on all the podcast platforms. We do an episode every single day. We will never miss that as part of our brand. And then all of our episodes are also on YouTube. Alan and I in our studios, laughing at each other. If you are a visual learner, we're on YouTube as well. Alan. Go ahead, my friend.

Alan Lazaros [00:41:52]:

Yeah. Next level university spelt just like it sounds. It's on all the stuff. Like Kev mentioned, the website has. We got a book club. We got a meetup that we do for free every month. We got cool stuff on there. We also have a journal, a dreamliner, and my third book.

Alan Lazaros [00:42:06]:

No, I'm kidding. But we have a dreamliner journal that helps you stay on task, that kind of thing. We call it a dreamliner. If you look it up on Amazon, it actually comes up after a plane.

Larry Roberts [00:42:15]:

Oh, wow.

Alan Lazaros [00:42:16]:

Apparently there's a plane called the Dreamliner. But I. At the end of the day, nextleveluniverse.com. it's nextleveluniverse.com. dot. The podcast is next levelUniversity. Kevin and I always have to explain that because the person who has that URL is charging way too much money. And we were like, nah, man.

Alan Lazaros [00:42:32]:

Nope.

Sara Lohse [00:42:32]:

I had to explain that this morning.

Larry Roberts [00:42:34]:

Yeah, right before we got.

Sara Lohse [00:42:35]:

I can't find the website. Like, next level universe. No, it's university. It's universe. Looking at it.

Kevin Palmieri [00:42:42]:

Not good branding.

Alan Lazaros [00:42:43]:

Yeah, that's not good, good branding. Okay, so don't do that. Maybe we'll buy it again.

Larry Roberts [00:42:50]:

We really appreciate it. We found some tremendous value in this episode and everybody out there watching and listening. If you found some value in this episode, do us a favor. Go ahead. Hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform or YouTube if you're out there as well, we'd love to have you. And with that, my name is Larry Roberts.

Sara Lohse [00:43:06]:

And I'm Sara Lohse. We'll talk to you next week.